Detour, Part 5 - Jesus of Nazareth and Statistical Improbabilities
Jesus of Nazareth
How many prophecies surrounding Jesus of Nazareth do you think there are in the Old Testament? 10? 20? 50? 100?
Not even close. There are in fact more than 60 major prophecies surrounding the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. But even this number falls short of the more than 300 total prophecies connected to the figure of Christ Jesus, Yeshua Ha'Mashiach. Over 300 hundred.
Of the 60+ major prophesies, these can be divided into the following categories, concerning: His birth; His nature; His ministry; His death-- fulfilled in a single day; and the events that would follow after His burial.
As to His Birth, He would be born the "Seed of Woman" and would "bruise" or "crush" the Serpent's "head." He would be born of a Virgin. He name would be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. He would be of the Seed of Abraham. The Seed of Isaac. From the tribe of Judah. Of the House of David. Preceded by a messenger; the birth of John. He would be born in Bethlehem. His birth would be welcomed by the blood of innocents; Rachel crying for her children.
Concerning His Nature, His pre-existence; from everlasting. He would be called Lord. Immanuel (God with us). He would be a prophet. A priest. A judge. A king.
Concerning His Ministry, He would begin in Galilee. He would perform miracles. Would teach in parables. He would enter the temple. Enter Jerusalem on a donkey. He would be a "stone of stumbling" to the Jews. A "light" to the Gentiles.
Concerning His death in a single day, He would be betrayed by a friend. Sold for 30 pieces of silver. The money would be thrown in the temple. And used to buy a potters field. He would be forsaken by his disciples. Accused by false witnesses. Stand silent before His accusers. He would be wounded and bruised. Smitten and spit upon. Mocked. Fall under the cross. His hands and feet would be pierced. Crucified with thieves. He would make intercession for His persecutors. He would be rejected by His own people. Hated without cause. His friends would stand afar off. People would shake their heads. He would be stared at, gawked at. His garments would be parted and lots would be cast for them. He would suffer thirst. Gall and vinegar would be offered to Him in place of water. He would cry out, "Why have You forsaken me?" He would commit His spirit to God. Not a single bone would be broken. But His heart would be. His side would be pierced. Darkness would cover the land. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb.
As to the events that would follow His death, He would take His life up again after three days-- The Resurrection. He would ascend into Heaven. He would be seated at the Right Hand of God. And He would return again so that where He is, we might be also.
Statistical Improbabilities
Last time I checked we were in Vegas looking at the roulette wheel and the hydrogen atom, so let's pick it up again from there.
Now, if the universe was comprised of only hydrogen then the "known" universe would be far far larger than what it's currently perceived to be. FAR larger. And realizing this we must also realize that 1079 does not describe size, as I've stated earlier, but rather quantity... Namely the quantity of electrons contained within the whole of the known universe. Consequently if the universe contained only Radium, whose atomic structure includes 88 electrons, the known universe would be much much smaller. MUCH smaller.
So what are the odds that you or I could, in a single try, pick out one single specific electron? The one that has written on it's side, "Congratulations! You're a Winner!"-- Assuming of course that we had microscopes powerful enough to actually read such writing --what would the odds be of performing such a feat? I can only imagine such a number, but I would bet it would be easier to win a multi-million dollar lottery in 10 consecutive tries, using the very same numbers.
Peter Stoner, in his book "Science Speaks" (1958, Moody Press. ISBN: 0802476309 -- out of print), applying the modern science of probability to just eight ( 8 ) messianic prophecies; specifically [1] Born in Bethlehem, [2] Preceded by a messenger, [3] Enter jerusalem on a donkey, [4] Betrayed by a friend, [5] Sold for 30 pieces of silver; the price of a slave, [6] The money thrown 'to the potter' in the House of God, [7] Silent before His accusers, and [8] Executed by crucifixion with thieves, puts the odds of one man fulfilling all 8, to the letter, at 1 in 1017. Considering there are more than 300 total prophecies surrounding the biblical messiah, what are the odds that one man would fulfill every single one? Too staggering a number to comprehend? What about the 60+ major prophecies? Stoner goes on to calculate the odds of one man fulfilling just 48 of these at 1 in 10157... Just one zero shy of twice 1079
I'd wager that the bookmakers in Las Vegas would give better odds to one man finding that single electron with the congratulatory message. FAR better odds. To think that the odds of one man fulfilling all of these prophecies is tremendously greater than the sum total of every electron in the known universe, is beyond comprehension.
But this whole discussion of electrons and Vegas odds is profitless, without a willingness to accept the figures I've given. It requires no small measure of intellectual honesty, because this is why the Bible has endured. Not because of diligent scribes, and translators, and holy men of God, but rather, because of God Himself, and the efficacy of His word... His Word of honor, that what He says WILL happen, will indeed happen. Remember, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" --Num 23:19
Fulfilled prophecy is the surest sign of the Bible's truthfulness, and reliability. No other book in history can boast what the Bible can; not the Qur'an, not the Bhagavad gita, not the Book of Mormon... NO other book in all of history can compare to God's Holy Word.
Next:
Detour, Part 6 - Types and Antitypes
Previously:
In Preparation for Detour, Part 5 - Exhibit B
In Preparation for Detour, Part 5 - Exhibit A
Detour, Part 4 - Comparing Translations to Established Christian Doctrines
Interlude No.1
Detour, Part 3 - Manuscripts, Translations, and "Why the KJV?"
Detour, Part 2 - The Nature and Limits of God... and why this is important
Detour, Parenthetical - "What Will Shortly Follow"
Detour, Part 1 - "Preamble"
Warning: Detour Ahead
How many prophecies surrounding Jesus of Nazareth do you think there are in the Old Testament? 10? 20? 50? 100?
Not even close. There are in fact more than 60 major prophecies surrounding the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. But even this number falls short of the more than 300 total prophecies connected to the figure of Christ Jesus, Yeshua Ha'Mashiach. Over 300 hundred.
Of the 60+ major prophesies, these can be divided into the following categories, concerning: His birth; His nature; His ministry; His death-- fulfilled in a single day; and the events that would follow after His burial.
As to His Birth, He would be born the "Seed of Woman" and would "bruise" or "crush" the Serpent's "head." He would be born of a Virgin. He name would be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. He would be of the Seed of Abraham. The Seed of Isaac. From the tribe of Judah. Of the House of David. Preceded by a messenger; the birth of John. He would be born in Bethlehem. His birth would be welcomed by the blood of innocents; Rachel crying for her children.
Concerning His Nature, His pre-existence; from everlasting. He would be called Lord. Immanuel (God with us). He would be a prophet. A priest. A judge. A king.
Concerning His Ministry, He would begin in Galilee. He would perform miracles. Would teach in parables. He would enter the temple. Enter Jerusalem on a donkey. He would be a "stone of stumbling" to the Jews. A "light" to the Gentiles.
Concerning His death in a single day, He would be betrayed by a friend. Sold for 30 pieces of silver. The money would be thrown in the temple. And used to buy a potters field. He would be forsaken by his disciples. Accused by false witnesses. Stand silent before His accusers. He would be wounded and bruised. Smitten and spit upon. Mocked. Fall under the cross. His hands and feet would be pierced. Crucified with thieves. He would make intercession for His persecutors. He would be rejected by His own people. Hated without cause. His friends would stand afar off. People would shake their heads. He would be stared at, gawked at. His garments would be parted and lots would be cast for them. He would suffer thirst. Gall and vinegar would be offered to Him in place of water. He would cry out, "Why have You forsaken me?" He would commit His spirit to God. Not a single bone would be broken. But His heart would be. His side would be pierced. Darkness would cover the land. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb.
As to the events that would follow His death, He would take His life up again after three days-- The Resurrection. He would ascend into Heaven. He would be seated at the Right Hand of God. And He would return again so that where He is, we might be also.
Statistical Improbabilities
Last time I checked we were in Vegas looking at the roulette wheel and the hydrogen atom, so let's pick it up again from there.
Now, if the universe was comprised of only hydrogen then the "known" universe would be far far larger than what it's currently perceived to be. FAR larger. And realizing this we must also realize that 1079 does not describe size, as I've stated earlier, but rather quantity... Namely the quantity of electrons contained within the whole of the known universe. Consequently if the universe contained only Radium, whose atomic structure includes 88 electrons, the known universe would be much much smaller. MUCH smaller.
So what are the odds that you or I could, in a single try, pick out one single specific electron? The one that has written on it's side, "Congratulations! You're a Winner!"-- Assuming of course that we had microscopes powerful enough to actually read such writing --what would the odds be of performing such a feat? I can only imagine such a number, but I would bet it would be easier to win a multi-million dollar lottery in 10 consecutive tries, using the very same numbers.
Peter Stoner, in his book "Science Speaks" (1958, Moody Press. ISBN: 0802476309 -- out of print), applying the modern science of probability to just eight ( 8 ) messianic prophecies; specifically [1] Born in Bethlehem, [2] Preceded by a messenger, [3] Enter jerusalem on a donkey, [4] Betrayed by a friend, [5] Sold for 30 pieces of silver; the price of a slave, [6] The money thrown 'to the potter' in the House of God, [7] Silent before His accusers, and [8] Executed by crucifixion with thieves, puts the odds of one man fulfilling all 8, to the letter, at 1 in 1017. Considering there are more than 300 total prophecies surrounding the biblical messiah, what are the odds that one man would fulfill every single one? Too staggering a number to comprehend? What about the 60+ major prophecies? Stoner goes on to calculate the odds of one man fulfilling just 48 of these at 1 in 10157... Just one zero shy of twice 1079
I'd wager that the bookmakers in Las Vegas would give better odds to one man finding that single electron with the congratulatory message. FAR better odds. To think that the odds of one man fulfilling all of these prophecies is tremendously greater than the sum total of every electron in the known universe, is beyond comprehension.
But this whole discussion of electrons and Vegas odds is profitless, without a willingness to accept the figures I've given. It requires no small measure of intellectual honesty, because this is why the Bible has endured. Not because of diligent scribes, and translators, and holy men of God, but rather, because of God Himself, and the efficacy of His word... His Word of honor, that what He says WILL happen, will indeed happen. Remember, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" --Num 23:19
Fulfilled prophecy is the surest sign of the Bible's truthfulness, and reliability. No other book in history can boast what the Bible can; not the Qur'an, not the Bhagavad gita, not the Book of Mormon... NO other book in all of history can compare to God's Holy Word.
Next:
Detour, Part 6 - Types and Antitypes
Previously:
In Preparation for Detour, Part 5 - Exhibit B
In Preparation for Detour, Part 5 - Exhibit A
Detour, Part 4 - Comparing Translations to Established Christian Doctrines
Interlude No.1
Detour, Part 3 - Manuscripts, Translations, and "Why the KJV?"
Detour, Part 2 - The Nature and Limits of God... and why this is important
Detour, Parenthetical - "What Will Shortly Follow"
Detour, Part 1 - "Preamble"
Warning: Detour Ahead
from the mind of... Eric | 6:00 PM
11 Comments:
Balderdash. Poor reasoning, poor use of logic, and poor command of probability theory. Come on, Eric, use your brain. Thinking for one's self is not defined by accepting uncritically any cockamamie pseudoscientific argument that happens to support your preconceptions.
Balderdash? Cockamamie? Pseudoscientific? Hardly a critical rebuttal. Your ability to call into question my arguments is hardly evidence of the superiority of yours. Can you offer any proof of balderdash, cockamamie, or pseudoscientific arguments?
What odds would you place on a single man fulfilling all the messianic prophecies Jesus DID fulfill?
What odds would you place on a single man fulfilling all the messianic prophecies Jesus DID fulfill?
Hardly worth my time, but I'll give you a few hints. First, it depends on who counts the prophecies and how they are counted as having been fulfilled or not. It's kind of like Nostradamus- it's easy to see random prophecies confirmed in events all around us. Most, if not all, are the product of over active imaginations, misinterpretations, projections, or are just plain fraudulent.
Second, this all assumes that the events described actually did happen, when they were recorded decades, even centuries after Jesus' death, and by people who had a stake in readers believing in his divinity. The miracles and virgin birth certainly are suspect, and are similar to miraculous events attributed to other spiritual leaders of the day. And there are dissenting texts- like the Gospel of Thomas.
Third, it all assumes that Jesus was not aware of the OT. He clearly was intimately aware of it, and it affected his actions- like his choice of entering Jerusalem on a donkey. Knowledge of Old Testament prophecies or stories lead many religious leaders to cast their own actions or teachings in the terms or narratives of the Old Testament.
This is like your past flawed arguments about evolution that I just googled (do you really think there's no convincing evidence that humans and dinosaurs weren't separated by millions of years?), not to mention your circular logic about the KJV. Your arguments about the Bible being unerring are especially unconvincing. It's just superstitious, convoluted fluff, selected to confirm what you already believe.
Not worth your time, but you'll give me a few hints?
First of all, it is NOT like Nostradamus who, as you say, was vague at best in his "prophecies," whereas the OT is quite specific.
As to the so-called Gospel of Thomas, it is reliably dated to the 2nd century-- no earlier --and has no discernable narrative, just a collection of sayings. Thomas was NOT written by Thomas, for Didymus Judas Thomas was speared to death aprox AD72 in the south of India. He therefore, could not have written the "gospel" that bears his name. John, in fact, was the last disciple to see death, circa AD100. He didn't write it either.
There were of course events out of Jesus' control. The year and place of his birth for one. Herod killing children to destroy the messiah, for another. Joseph and His mothers flight into Egypt. The fact that they raised Him in Nazareth... and so on and so forth.
You haven't established any credible arguments against anything thus far.
Well said, El, I liked it so much that I hated to see you bury it under so many partisan political postings!
Isn't it interesting that despite all the clues we recognize now from the Old Testament, the religious leaders of the day were looking for a totally different type of Messiah.
I think that should sound a cautionary note for those who seem to think they know all the details of His 2nd coming. But perhaps that's a discussion for another day?
Solomon, sounds like you came in here with your own set of preconceptions. It really doesn't seem as if you could be convinced short of seeing the Lord in the flesh.
I will concede that you are right in suggesting that El cannot prove Jesus is the Messiah. Then again, no amount of logic, probablilty theory, science, or argument can ever disprove Him, either.
It comes down to recognizing that there is something more than what we can see and touch and analyze. Faith. Hope. Love.
Solomon, not considering all the options, well, that's just not too wise. :-)
GP-
It really doesn't seem as if you could be convinced short of seeing the Lord in the flesh.
I'm open to any convincing evidence, I just haven't seen any yet. Arguments like EL's can be (and have been) used to justify just about any belief system.
I will concede that you are right in suggesting that El cannot prove Jesus is the Messiah. Then again, no amount of logic, probablilty theory, science, or argument can ever disprove Him, either.
I agree 100%! And I have no interest in disproving claims about the existence or nature of God. I do not believe that to be possible or a wise pursuit.
It comes down to recognizing that there is something more than what we can see and touch and analyze. Faith. Hope. Love.
Again, agreed. I think shoddy arguments dressed up to look logical or scientific only detract from these basic (and laudable) motivations for belief.
Solomon, not considering all the options, well, that's just not too wise. :-)
Point taken, but it was an open mind that finally persuaded me to leave the church.
To elaborate on an earlier post: There are just too many claims in the Bible that are just flat wrong (like the age of the Earth) for it to be considered literal truth.
I devoted a lot of prayer and critical thinking about that, and about the fact that religious beliefs that are equally passionate as Christianity have arisen over and over and over again across the globe. Beliefs that are incompatible with Christianity, but that inspire equal devotion. To me, that says that the existence of religious certainty is no reason to accept it as fact. Humans are creative, they often have a need to believe in the supernatural, and given enough time they will produce many a compelling myth.
I do not claim to have proof of my beliefs, but I am happy in them, and find much more inspiration in more rational pursuits. And I do still put a great deal of value in hope and love, even if my faith has been replaced by a delight in rational inquiry.
Now, as for considering all the options, how come I don't see a lot of Christians studying Buddhism or any of the other options out there? ;-)
Solomon,
I hear what you're saying.
But if humans created Christianity, I just wish they would have come up with something easier to follow! :-)
To me, it sounds like you just need to try a church that is accepting of your open, searching mind?
Doubt, I think, is a big part of faith -- which you obviously have. If you were without faith, you wouldn't have bothered with a prayer.
Even the disciples voiced lots of doubts. One of the biggest doubters became the "Rock" on which the church was built.
Like you, I'm no biblical literalist, and frankly I don't look to the Bible on questions of science, etc.
I see plenty of disagreement between the gospel writers, which, to me, helps confirm their veracity. If the accounts were all the same, it would be more troubling, I think.
As for the other world religions, I have wrestled with similar questions myself. I find their similarities interesting, and I wonder what that may say about God and how he is revealing himself.
Faith is a choice, and I am admittedly biased by having been exposed to it many years. I have also been away from it for long periods of my life.
Ultimately I felt compelled to return, not exactly to the Christianity of my youth, but to a new understanding of a God who always loves, always forgives, always calls us.
I am ultimately drawn and compelled to a God who loves us so deeply that he came to be among us to show us just how much.
What GP said.
Ans Solomon, you should consider the United Church of Christ.
www.goodistillspeaking.org
You will NOT have to leave your brain at the door. They -- "We" in a few months -- take the Bible seriously, as the sacred text of Christian believers who came before us. They -- "we" -- do not, as a rule (so to speak) do NOT take much of it literally.
Dang it:
www.godisstillspeaking.org
GP and ER, I appreciate the sentiment, and don't get me wrong-I respect your beliefs. I would take your advice on finding a church if I were a believer. ER, I'm very familiar with the UCC and respect it immensely. If most Christians were like that, (you know, not letting their faith close their minds to rational inquiry and the scientific method, and actually trying to follow the teachings of Christ, rather than impose a narrow interpretation on everyone else) I think we'd have far fewer problems in this country.
The only point of my post is that I do think it's important to call people out when a) promoting biblical literalism or b) claiming to have "proven" the Bible's veracity with arguments that are very shakey at best. D. Elrod had asked earlier why I had given up my beliefs, hence the aside on that.
Ciao,
Solomon
Peace, Solomon.
And you have succinctly described the church I have come to love!
(you know, not letting their faith close their minds to rational inquiry and the scientific method, and actually trying to follow the teachings of Christ, rather than impose a narrow interpretation on everyone else)
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