Purpose Driven Charlatan... UPDATED!
...Rick Warren.
Christian leaders to Warren: Keep Obama from pulpit
Argue Democrat senator's support for abortion incompatible with Bible
I'd have more to say if I had more time... or present desire. As it is I'm simply too sickened by what I'm seeing lately.
UPDATE:December 1, 4:25pm -- The following excerpt is from a short article by Brannon Howse at Christian Worldview Network...
Christian leaders to Warren: Keep Obama from pulpit
Argue Democrat senator's support for abortion incompatible with Bible
I'd have more to say if I had more time... or present desire. As it is I'm simply too sickened by what I'm seeing lately.
UPDATE:December 1, 4:25pm -- The following excerpt is from a short article by Brannon Howse at Christian Worldview Network...
Can Butts, Obama, Dybul and Rick Warren Save the World?
Rick Warren’s conference is this coming Friday, December 1st, 2006 at his church. To this day, I don’t have a clue what Pastor Warren thinks can be accomplished by gathering together a group of non-believers that are hostile to Christianity to discuss the world’s problems. Promotion of a social gospel will not save one soul.
from the mind of... Eric | 3:10 PM
29 Comments:
Makes me sick too, but for different reasons.
You people are cannabiling yourselves in the name of fundamentalism and our-way-or-the-highway "Christianity"!
Bah. You don't let facts get in the way of your ideology. You don't let love get in the way of your "hate the sin but love the sinner" fantasy, which is impossible for all, since none are righteous, no, not one!
Come quickly, Lord Jesus, indeed! Save the Church from its ever-self-loving sinful, selfish, graceless self.
"Support for abortion"? Spin is sin, man.
The above was an outburst, I admit. Sorry for the tone.
Here is what Obama, a member of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago (full disclosure: an autonomous, liberal Congregational church of my own denomination):
"I was drawn to the power of the African American religious tradition to spur social change. [...] In the history of these struggles, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; rather, it was an active, palpable agent in the world. [...] It was because of these newfound understandings–that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved–that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized. It came about as a choice and not an epiphany; the questions I had did not magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth."
I believe him. And I think his profession, like any other's, should be taken at face value.
At face value I would agree, but what does the market (determining the worth of his fruit) say about the genuine value of that currency? But my beef isn't with Obama, he can continue to support abortion if he feels so inclined... but he'll certainly answer to God for it, and he won't like the outcome of that Q&A. It's Rick Warren who is of greater concern to me. If that man is genuinely saved he has fallen far from the straight and narrow. And his 30,000 (or so) member congregation? Because of his teaching, they are in serious peril of eternal punishment. Imagine the blood on his hands should he not repent (or get saved!) and seek to redeem all those souls he has mislead, as in, 'not shown the real path' to Jesus... as a hard and difficult path that few ever find.
"Because of his teaching, they are in serious peril of eternal punishment."
I'm sorry, because of what teaching? Must we all be in agreement on every "sin" and must we think that those who disagree with us are hellbound?
What if I pointed out that I think that your sort of rigid judgemental tone is keeping people from Christ? Must I now condemn you as worse than a non-believer condemned to everlasting judgement not only for your apostasy but also for all the others who you've kept from salvation?
One of the things that gets me about Obama is that in Time a few months ago, there was a photo op of him at church. It was really artsy-fartsy, taken at an angle looking up at him while he held hands in the pew.
Anyone who makes such a big deal out of their religiosity makes my spider sense tingle.
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."
God. Help. Me. Support for a woman's right to make this decision is not "support for abortion" no matter how many times you and others say it. But we differ, I'm sure.
What is it that Rick Warren is supposed to repent from???
The AP story on this is a little less alarmist, as usual, and fair and balanced to borrow a highjacked phrase.
WND is fine, for what it is. Keep in mind what it is, though: An Internet-based supermarket tabloid.
Dan--
Yes, we must be in agreement. For how can two walk together unless they be in agreement? If you can't recognize sin, having read God's word, what hope is there for you? Or anyone? The Spirit within us will speak to each conscience what is and is not sin. But the Holy Spirit does not reside in us all, which is why the message preached by Warren is so dangerous.
We MUST be in agreement on Sin... Specific points of doctrine? Not so much, but Sin? Absolutely!
Christianity is imcompatible with every other faith-- there can be no "ecumenical understanding". Christianity is the only faith that offers hope for eternity, and the truth of God is plain as day within the covers, books, chapters, and verses of the Bible... And that includes the nature and identity of Sin.
Your argument has grown tiresome, and little separates it from that spewed out by all the other exegetical contortionists out there. Get out of "The Message" and the NIV, and pick up a real Bible.
"Support for a woman's right to make this decision is not "support for abortion" "
Perhaps not, but it certainly condones the murder of unborn children.
You may not support a drunk driver who has killed someone in an auto accident, but by saying he has the right to get behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated certainly condones his killing of other motorists.
And abortion is far more deadly than drunk driving. Half of everyone who enters an abortion clinic does not come out alive. Unless the mother has a last minute change of heart.
Your argument is fallacious, however well meaning. At some point in time you're going to have to call that spade a 'spade'. God sees everything in black and white... No ambiguity there! And I certainly understand the desire to be fair to all people... to spare their feelings and offer them hope. But what hope is there, realistically, outside the saving knowledge of Christ?
If you're honest, the answer must be, "None"
And you're right, "Spin" IS sin.
"Yes, we must be in agreement. For how can two walk together unless they be in agreement?"
"Christianity is imcompatible with every other faith"
I'm talking about Christian to Christian. Obama to me to you. We are all Christians. We have committed our lives to Jesus and are trusting in Jesus for our salvation. We are brothers in Christ.
And sometimes, brothers in Christ will disagree - even about sin! I guarantee you probably disagree at some point with Billy Graham about some sin. With James Dobson about some sin. With GW Bush about some sin.
We are flawed human beings - even we Christians! - and we will make mistakes. We are not all going to agree upon every sin.
Do you agree with me that war is generally a sin? No, I don't think you do. Does that mean you're doomed to hell? Do you agree with Dobson on every sin? Is it a sin to smoke? Is it a sin to drink beer? According to my very Christian pastors growing up it was. There are hundreds/thousands of possible sins - sins of omission, sins of commission - and we will not agree upon them all.
Is that what you're saying? I keep asking this question and you keep ignoring it. Please answer me and I will cease to bring it up: Do you think that every Christian will agree upon every sin and that when two believers disagree, that is evidence that one or the other is NOT a Christian?
"Get out of "The Message" and the NIV, and pick up a real Bible."
Why go there, Eric? Do you really think you've read more bibles and more translations than I have? Shall we get in a bible pissing contest? Let's not be petty.
Petty? Who talking about bible pissing contests here, Dan? Or Salty Saints. Dan's the only one demanding answers to questions to which he already knows the answers. Questions I earlier described as the property of 'exegetical contortionists'.
Let's discuss the merits of allowing a supporter of Abortion-- as Sen Obama is --in the pulpit of God's church (and that heinous act innocuously called 'partial-birth' abortion at that!) when God expressly says He knows the unborn by name; knowing their purpose, their deeds, and their length of days, from the moment they were conceived.
Rick Warren does the Grace of God a great disservice by allowing any such man behind the Pulpit.
What's tiresome is unholy judgmentalism, unbridled arrogance and garden-variety prejudice -- all masquerading not only as piety, but as the Very Breath of God!
I think I'll be taking a break, EL. You're wrong about so much more than you're right about, as far as God's grace, and, well, what it means to be a Christian and to get along with fellow Christians that you may or may not agree with, that it honestly makes me wonder whether you;'ve actually ever *encountered* God's grace, or if you've got a bunch of what some preachers call "head knowledge" -- but not "heart knowledge."
Do you know Jesus? Really? I mean, have you actually ever been knocked to your face before God's goodness so hard it shut your mouth and ripped open your heart? Or did you just walk the aisle, "go through the motions" and say all the right things to the right people?
Dude. I wonder.
What does "Judge not lest you be judged" MEAN to you? What part of the concept of bibliolatry is unclear? How much of what you're about is slogans and long-memorized yet seldom deeply pondered Bible verses, and how much is the kind of conversion that comes from loving people wastefully -- ESPECIALLY those with whom you disagree?
For you to so smugly judge Obama, or any other Christian, the way you do -- that, my friend, is a sin you will answer for as great as any.
Do you know why the following great hymn is a joke today? Not because of liberal Christians like Obama!
Because of fundamentalists who would save their own niche of the faith at the expense not only of the faith as a whole but at the expene of the very souls they hope to "save" -- because how can the Holy Sprit of God be heard over such arrogance? It can't.
"We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord ...
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love
"We will work with each other, we will work side by side ...
And we'll guard each one's dignity and save each one's pride
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love ...
"We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand ...
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love."
What a joke. What a sad, pathetic joke. Read it and weep, man. Read it and weep.
Mama ER will have heart surgery from 12:30 p.m. to around 4:30 p.m. Friday. Going to be with her in the morning, then I'm going to work for a couple of hours rather than just sit around and worry, then I'll go back to the hospital.
(Exact times provided for those to whom "intercessory prayer" means something. As usual, rosaries, good karma, soft-and-squishy high-church prayers, holy-rolling pew-jumping praying in tongues, neo-hippy vibes and happy-happy thoughts cheerfully accepted.)
"Rick Warren does the Grace of God a great disservice by allowing any such man behind the Pulpit."
And that, Eric, sums up the whole subject beautifully.
You'll have to excuse me for my stupidity. If you answered earlier, I missed it.
Would you mind terribly answering again: Do you think that all believers have to agree upon every sin and, in the case where two believers disagree, that is an indication that one is not a Christian at all?
My apologies, too, for posting under Salty Saints, it was just a mistake. You have a problem with that name?
"I'd have more to say if I had more time... or present desire. As it is I'm simply too sickened by what I'm seeing lately."
You and me, both, EL!
I've got a one track mind at this point...BOMB IRAN!
And where does this new writer get off referring to these three as "non-believers" and "hostile to Christianity"? I saw nothing in the article to suggest either.
Some supporting evidence would be in order or this writer (and you, if you're endorsing his view) will be guilty of gleefully bearing false witness, which WE ALL know is a sin and sinners can't get in to God's kingdom, at least according to some...
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:12
"In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."
Judges 21:25
And there is still no king in Israel, But Praise God that is going to soon change. And He will...
"...execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Jude 15
Dan and ER's focus seems to be on silencing the call to repentance, rather than seeking to "[pull] them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." They seem rather of a mind to calling into question the voice of one crying in the wilderness...
I know, I know... I'm no John the Baptist. But it does seem as though no one is listening. But then it's not my job to do anything other than plant seed.
What I object to is the characterization of the Christian faith in general, and salvation specifically, as adherence to a list of doctrinal assertions based on interpretation of Scripture, but pormoted as revelation.
What I object to even more strenuously is the characterization of Christianity and identification of salvation with specific public-policy goals.
What I object to most, however, is the condemnation of Christians of *different* doctrines and *different* public-policy goals to hell. Obama, and others attacked in this post and others, is a Christian.
EL, the problem is not the seed. It's where you're spreading it: Onto ground that is growing already.
But here's another metaphor that, I think, is closer to it: The seed is fine, but it needs scarring. That is, the rat-a-tat recitation of Bible verses without regard to who wrote them, to whom, when, and for what purspose -- that is, without context and interpretation -- is a misuse of seed. It needs scarred before being tossed.
"Obama, and others attacked in this post and others, [are] Christian."
Really? Why? what makes him and others 'Christian'? Because they say they are? Why are you and Dan Christian... Why am I Christian? Because we say so? Taking you and Dan at your word, I therefore feel sure enough to say with confidence that both of you have read the Bible enough, and often enough, to know that calling oneself a Christian doesn't make it so...
Matthew 7:21-22
Matthew 25:11-12
Luke 6:44-46
Luke 13:25-27
The simple truth is, as you must know, that the Church is filled with people who are not God's...
Matthew 13:24-43
I don't know the state of Rick Warren's soul, nor that of Barack Obama's, but what I DO know is their profession of faith doesn't match well with other statements they've made... In Obama's case, his defense of abortion rights-- as if anyone should have the right to kill another person! --especially his defense of Partial-Birth abortion.
But let's be honest here. If there were false prophets and fakirs before Jesus' day, as well as IN His day, there are certainly false prophets in our day. Some people are reluctant to point out specific individuals on that score, but again, in all honestly, if any man claims to have a special word from the Lord, claiming this or that will happen.......... and it does not happen. That man is a false prophet. And Benny Hinn fits that description.
If the Bible warns us to "...believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God" then that is a sure indication that not everyone who quacks like a duck is in fact a duck.
Later in that same verse, and beyond (1 John 4:1-3), the warning is qualified... Not every spirit will openly declare that Christ has come in the flesh. But Jude 11 says these same people also run "greedily after the error of Ba'laam for reward".
So I ask you, how can one man tend to the individual needs of a membership 30,000 strong? How can Rick Warren possibly know each sheep within his flock and care for each individually? He can't. He has other people to do it for him, which means he has passed his responsibility for their spiritual and physical well-being to others who may or may not have God's calling, or anointing..... Or Spirit.
Rick Warren says a lot of the right things, but then, so does Benny Hinn. Mr. Warren compromises far too much to achieve good ends. Yes, trying to wake up the world to the scourge of AIDS is a good and noble endeavor, but we are not to yoke ourselves unequally with unbelievers. And Obama, specifically, is presently speaking two different gospels, only one of which is genuine-- Or is it?. At the very least Mr. Warren should be seeking to "restore [brother Obama] in the spirit of meekness, considering [him]self, lest [he should] also be tempted"--Galatians 6:1
Perhaps Charlatan is too strong a word to describe Mr. Warren. But I dare say you wouldn't like any of the other words I might use it its stead.
At the very least Rick Warren has compromised the faith, because as Christians we are to hate "...even the garment spotted by the flesh"--Jude 23, and anything of the flesh is of sin. Quoting from Jamieson, Fausset & Brown
"hating — Even hatred has its legitimate field of exercise. Sin is the only thing which God hates: so ought we.
even the garment — a proverbial phrase: avoiding the most remote contact with sin, and hating that which borders on it. As garments of the apostles wrought miracles of good in healing, so the very garment of sinners metaphorically, that is, anything brought into contact with their pollution, is to be avoided. Compare as to lepers and other persons defiled, Leviticus 13:52-57; Leviticus 15:4-17 : the garments were held polluted; and anyone touching them was excluded, until purified, from religious and civil communion with the sanctified people of Israel. Christians who received at baptism the white garment in token of purity, are not to defile it by any approach to what is defiled."
It is not my intent to consign anyone to the eternally black and fiery pits of hell... That is God's prerogative alone. My intent is only to wake as many people as I can reach, because the Church has fallen asleep, and the evil one has crept in and sown tares throughout. The pews are filled with unsaved people, and if the Church continues to slumber these people will die in their sins and perish in the second death.
How many people do you think I reach with this blog?
Allow me to answer that for you...
Not. Near. Enough.
Okay, well then reach out to me: Can you provide a list of sins of which I must agree with you in order to be saved? I apparently must agree with you that anyone who supports abortion is not a Christian. I apparently must agree with you that we must support this Iraq War to be a Christian (or do we? - I don't know! That's why I need your list so I'll be sure to avoid disagreeing with you and thereby going to hell.
Obama: "But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth."
Now, EL, is the great old hymn "I Have Decided to Follow Jesus" in the hymnals of the church you attend? If so, tear it out if you don't belief that *that* is what defines a Christian.
People who add to it, or take away from it, do so at their peril -- not for their soul, which is secure, but for their influence.
I love the hymn:
I have decided to follow Jesus ...
Though I may wonder, I still will follow ...
The world behind me, the cross before me ...
Though none go with me, still I will follow ...
Will you decide now to follow Jesus? ...
No turning back, no turning back.
Yet you, and others, continue to throw roadblocks up in front of those who would answer Jesus's call! "My way," you say -- "or stay here!"
To no avail, I might add. Many, many are on the path with you, who you don't see because you're blind to them.
That's OK, actually, since the only inkling you can possibly have of anyone's relationship with God is your own. Myself, too.
Which is why Christians either will find a way to get along with one another -- or continue to make a mockery of the words and example of the Savior Himself by continuing to fight one another over things that only God knows for.
I don't think I have ever seen where you've said anything about praying for a brother who you perceive as being in error! All -- alllllllll -- you do is judge, and condemn -- then insist that you are only the messenger.
ER...
I AM only a messenger. You are only a messenger. Dan, likewise, is only a messenger. Yet is seems we all three bear different messages, as you've noted.
I don't claim to have special knowledge as to who is and who is not one of His. I only claim to read the tree and the fruit it bears. The fruit of Obama's lips and heart, in terms of his support of abortion, is contrary to the will and law of God. If Obama is genuinely saved, then he has genuinely strayed from the truth. If Rick Warren sees it as acceptable to allow one who has so strayed from the truth to stand behind the pulpit then he has compromised the faith. If Warren is genuinely saved, he too has strayed from the truth.
If both of these men are genuinely saved, nothing... NOTHING... can separate them from the love of God. They will answer to God for their waywardness, and for the damage they've done to those who followed them....
As will I, as will we all. Do not think I set myself higher than them or you. I am all too aware of my own shortcomings. But if these two are unwilling to stand for what is right, then I must. In point of fact, I MUST whether they do or not!
Noting something you said,
"...not for their soul, which is secure, but for their influence."
What care I for influence. I can't influence a single person to accept or reject the teachings of Christ, or the Gospel, accept by my faithfulness, that people may see something about me that compells them to accept not my message, but God's. Nothing I say will save a single soul. It is God that allows the seeds I plant to either bear fruit or die in the hearts where I've planted. Either way, His word will not return void; it will either save that soul for all eternity, or it will condemn him/her on the last day.
My words, the things I write, obviously ring harsh in your ears. Perhaps my words leave a bitter taste in your spirit, and in your mouth. I can't help that. I am no prophet. But I am called to work in the fields... AS ARE WE ALL. And as I've previously written, I am drawn to, compelled by, and draw inspiration from the book of Jude, as well as John the Baptist. Neither of whom were milquetoasts. Both of whom angered plenty of people-- John lost his head at the request of a vengeful daughter, and Jude was crucified at Edessa, A.D. 72. Jesus said,
"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" --Matthew 10:24-25
No one is saying you or Dan hate me, but there will certainly be others who will, and Jesus said in verse 28 that my proper response should be to "...fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Perhaps some angry soul will do the same to me one day, as they did to John, and Jude, and countless others over the centuries... I sincerely hope not, but neither will I worry about it, and because of worry, soften the message I feel compelled to put out here in this virtual wilderness.
You are of course welcome to disagree. I won't stop you as long as you're civil-- and you've never been anything but. Yet neither will I stop pointing out sin where I see it, and I expect you and Dan, as well as Ms. Green and others to point out where I'm going wrong. I tell you here and now, that I will meditate on your chastisments, and I will amend my position if the Spirit compels me to do so, but otherwise, I will stick with the truth I feel compelled to preach.
This is unttrue, unfair and you keep repeating it: "in terms of his support of abortion."
I think I meant "witness" instead of "influence."
And by all means, follow whee'er the Spirit leads -- but I wouldn't assume that the Spirit would necessarily lead others the exact same way.
That's always my beef with brethren of a fundamentalist bent: That they insist that to be a Christian must be just like them.
Nope.
'For almost a decade, Obama has been a leader in the Illinois legislature in the battle to protect a woman's right to choose and promote equal economic rights and opportunities.'
Source: Campaign website, ObamaForIllinois.com May 2, 2004
Supporting a woman's right to choose murder for the unborn child in her womb. However you slice or dice it [pun intended], Obama supports murder. He talks about reducing the number of abortions in this country, but he supports a woman's right to choose. In fact he more than merely 'supports', he defends, champions, a woman's right to choose. A 'Christian' should not be in the business of defending abortion.... Murder. He should reject this evil outright and champion life instead, whatever the consequence to his political career.
I began my comment here, but it got too lengthy, because I apparently have a lot to say on a related subject, so I posted my comment over at my place. I see nothing wrong with Obama speaking in church but I have a problem with his possible subject matter, and I defintely have a problem with his apparent willingness to allow mothers to murder their babies.
Well, I and lots of other "Christians" think you're wrong, and dishonest about it.
It's not murder, which is a legal term, although you can argue that it's a form of homicide if you'd like.
This would be an insurmountable difference betwixt us.
Swiped from Sojourners:
QUOTE OF THE WEEK
"Jesus loved and accepted others without approving of everything they did. That's our position too, but it upsets a lot of people ...."
- Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, responding to conservatives who criticized his invitation to Sen. Barack Obama to attend an HIV/AIDS conference Warren hosted at his church. (Source: ABC News)
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