Comments Worthy of a Post...
I received a comment from "Solomon" for Tuesday's post, On Ishmael, and what God had to say...
Solomon was not convinced.
Solomon had more to say, but except for "...Superstitious notions," and "...Evolutionary study," I had and have nothing to say. It was the first two paragraphs that elicited my response:
I neglected to clarify that last sentence, so I'll do it here:
As the Texts of Exodus and Joshua are far older than the whole of the Qur'an, the God described in those texts is also older than the god of Islam, or "Allah". And if anything is older than Allah, then he is no god at all. And not to be worshipped.
Solomon chose to use the "Other" option when posting his comment, so he could be anyone, which is fine-- I much prefer this option over "Anonymous". No one should have to fear posting a comment. But that being said, there's no guarantee Solomon is who he says he is. So we accept it on faith.
But I couldn't let his statements stand un-answered.
Solomon was not convinced.
Nonsense. This is the same kind of tribalism and religious zealotry that led to 9/11 and the religious strife we see in the Middle East.
You can't base policy on ancient texts. Who gets to choose? Haven't you noticed that every culture thinks it's the chosen people?
Solomon had more to say, but except for "...Superstitious notions," and "...Evolutionary study," I had and have nothing to say. It was the first two paragraphs that elicited my response:
"You can't base policy on ancient texts."
"Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
--Exodus 20:13-16
Only three of ten, to keep this discussion secular. Interestingly enough, all three are crimes, and punishable as such in our modern society. The fourth crime of adultery is still applicable and punishable under the USMCJ. Now, compare this ...Policy based on ancient texts with that of Shari'a Law's retributional eye-for-an-eye brand of justice, that includes maiming, stoning and beheading's, then decide which one you'd rather live under.
As to 'Religious Zealotry', it is not Christians we hear about every night on the evening news, who are kidnapping and butchering innocents, demanding the murder of blasphemer's, and blowing themselves and innocent civilians up into messy gobbets of gore. It wasn't Christians who flew airliners into the Twin Towers, or the Pentagon, or that empty field in Pennsylvania. Nor did Christians blow up a night club in Bali, or a wedding party in Jordan. Christians didn't plan and perform the attacks on the London Underground. Religious Zealotry?! It's not Christians who routinely murder wives, daughters, and daughters in law for a perceived stain against their family's honor. It's not Christians who perform surgical mutilation on the genitalia of their women.
"Who gets to choose?"
I get to choose. You get to choose. We all get to choose... And pay the consequence of said choice.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
--Joshua 24:15
Allah is not God.
I neglected to clarify that last sentence, so I'll do it here:
As the Texts of Exodus and Joshua are far older than the whole of the Qur'an, the God described in those texts is also older than the god of Islam, or "Allah". And if anything is older than Allah, then he is no god at all. And not to be worshipped.
Solomon chose to use the "Other" option when posting his comment, so he could be anyone, which is fine-- I much prefer this option over "Anonymous". No one should have to fear posting a comment. But that being said, there's no guarantee Solomon is who he says he is. So we accept it on faith.
But I couldn't let his statements stand un-answered.
from the mind of... Eric | 1:04 PM
28 Comments:
Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't lie. How incredibly unobvious! Wow, if we didn't have the ten commandments, what would we do?
And my point is not to defend Islam, it's to point out that religion is the problem.
But since you bring it up, I find it interesting that the Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) word for God was "Alaha." Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all come from the same traditions and trace their roots to the same (*cough* mythical) God.
Also, the recency argument makes no sense. By the same token, we can ignore the New Testament because the Old Testament is, well, older.
But leaving that aside, since God's word is eternal and unchanging, perhaps you can answer these questions on the biblical teachings in Leviticus:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Remember, God cannot lie. His word is true.
The Ten Commandments given to Moses by God, are contextual, i.e.; they illustrate the requirements a man must faithfully adhere to, without fail, every moment of his life, if he would, at the very end-- standing before God --appear righteous in God's eyes.
These others you mention are contextual as well, but they relate to the time and culture of the period, as well as for the blessings of good health... Or they dealt with the ritual of animal sacrifice and the proper manner in which God would accept worship.
a) First of all, You would never burn a bull on an altar... the priests would. And there is no recorded objection to the odor of roasting meat mentioned in the scriptures.
b) Slavery was common and acceptable "in those days" but slavery, as practiced by the Israelites, was not even close to what was once practiced here in the US. Slaves were paid wages, and had an opportunity to buy their freedom or be set free during the Year of Jubilee.
Slavery is not an acceptable practice in this time. Therefore, in regard to d) Your friend is wrong. It is not acceptable to own Mexicans. Or Canadians.
c) Uh.... it's called Hygiene. Eww!
e) Jesus answers this question more than once in the Gospels. You can do better.
f) Eating shellfish is a lesser "abomination" than homosexuality? God says sin is sin. A little white lie is equal to murder. As for the shellfish issue, it's for the health of the people. I don't know where you live, but around here, oysters are a big deal... unfortunately it's a risky proposition to eat them. Clams, Oysters, Mussels, Scallops, Shrimp, yada, yada.... all present risks in regard to diet.
g) You, unless you are a Levite, and trained in the Temple Rites [and there currently isn't a temple in Israel] will never have to approach the altar. So you needn't worry.
h) It's a cultural thing. It singles out the observing Israelite from the Gentile.
i) A football is hardly the equivalent of the pig skin/hide God refers to here. Again, it's an question of Hygiene.
j) No.... and No. C'mon! Now you're just being silly.
You did some research, but you've missed the spirit of God's law. You must take into account the context of any given scripture.
Oh, and "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent..." Numbers 23:19
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began..." Titus 1:2
"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us..." Hebrews 6:18
If there is anything God cannot do, it's tell a lie. If two verses seem to contradict, the contradiction lies in our understanding. Again... Context.
God CANNOT lie. His word IS true.
Well said....well said, El!
Your post and comment humble me.
I've heard this "Leviticus" argument before. When a rejector-of-God ponders the reasoning of Christianity, he fails to realize he is completely ignorant of things spiritual. How can an atheist ever hope to be taken seriously when he refuses to accept the fact that others might just possibly have experienced something they have not?
It's like a four year-old saying she hates brocolli when she's never even tasted it!
Haters-of-Christ refuse to admit something important about nature. Of all life on this planet, man is unique in the most unique way. Atheists choose to be animals--much like the far left of today!
Atheism is nothing more than rebellion against truth.
Lash, you know that "Solomon" is KEvron, right?
The Shellfish instructions were given in a time in human history before refrigeration, and before human understanding of microscopic biology, and the fact that these instructions are given in the Old Testament are further proof of a higher guiding intelligence...
Moot Point.
The Ten Commandments ant the Old Testament are "The Law."
The coming of Jesus represents a New Covenant between God and Man, and this Covenant transcends
"The Law."
God forgives Sin, when the Sinner asks for Forgiveness.
That said, that Ten Commandments ant the whole book of Leviticus, for that matter, reads like an owner's manual for the Human Body, and a Guide to Social Interaction.
If everyone everywhere closely adhered to the principles laid out there, we would all be happier, healthier, and more successful, without a doubt.
Great post, Lash!!
When you look at the law with spiritual understanding, you find it is a very libertarian document.
Jesus said that the two greatest commandments were to love God, heart, mind and soul and to love others as ourselves. He also said that all of the Law hangs on these tw commandments. An atheist is not held to the first and greatest-"Love the Lord thy God". He is, however, held to the second greatest of the two-that which gives proper insruction as to how to co-exist in harmony and peace. He also shows man what is the value of the consequences for dismissing each transgression towards others.
God knew when he gave the Law that man could not obey. The ultimate reason for his giving the Law was to show man his unworthy condition. Thw Law is what the Bible actually syas is a "schoolmaster". Teaching man both how to live together and his need for Christ.
Er...umm...Shall we pray?
Something else for Solomon (the unwise)
You "unobvious" comment strikes me as funny in its hidden absurdity. Do you think "Lucy" (has THAT fragmented fossil been debunked yet?), the originator of the oldest human remains on earth, felt it prudent to lie, steal, or kill in her struggle to be the fittest and survive?
The "origins" myth that atheists cling to so vicously would suggest that lying, stealing, and killing would be not only acceptable but required.
Where do atheists get their morals, anyhow, Solomon?
In defense of Solomon. He hasn't stated whether he is an Athiest or not... only that God is "Mythical". There is hope for everyone.
Secondly, he is absolutely right when he says "religion is the problem." A lot of evil has been done in the name of religion, and Christianity is no exception.
Jesus had plenty to say about the religious. But he never mentions "Religion", as an institution, other than to judge the Scribes and Pharasees for their hypocrisy.
James 1:27 says, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
How does one keep himself unspotted? He doesn't... He can't. Which is why we need God in the first place.
Want an example of what is wrong with the church today? It's men like Benny Hinn, a man adored by hundreds of thousands, as a real man of God. But how many know he is a little more than a false prophet, and not to be heeded?
I don't say this to create a stir among any Hinnites out there, but it amazes me to no end how little the modern "church" bothers to challenge what's being taught to them, accepting everything that comes out of the lips of any man claiming to know God.
So while I think Solomon's argument is silly, he is right in regard to religion.
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have big problems with most denominations. It all goes back to my belief that Man has forgotten how to think and discern for himself, So I won't sit here and defend all of Christendom just to score points against Solomon.
Elrod, if I haven't said it yet, "Welcome Back"
Cap'n--
No, I had no idea that Solomon was KEvron. He made a valid point about religion though.
Thanks for the comment.
WOW, I never thought poking a little fun at fundamentalists could cause so much fur to fly! What a treat.
Nope, I've never posted as KEVron. Guess again! Please contact KEVron and have him/her join the discussion.
D. elrod, are you saying the only reason you're ever a nice guy is to avoid eternal punishment? That strikes me as both sad and ungenuine. How does that make you a deserving person?
I know many atheists who value honesty and helping others mightily. Many seem more likely to follow the teachings of Christ than a lot of Christians I know. Love your neighbor, love your enemy, help the poor- teachings that many conservative Christians have forgotten in their rush to force their beliefs on others.
Religion doesn't necessarily lead to moral behavior. Divorce, out-of-wedlock birth, poverty, murder, incidence of preventable disease --- go down the list and you'll see that they are all highest in the reddest states and lowest in the bluest. How do you explain that?
9 of the 10 states with the lowest divorce rates are blue states, and most are in the Northeast, where our values suck so bad. And where are the highest divorce rates? All 10 of the top 10 are in red states, full of moral scolds shaking their fingers at the rest of us. Hee hee.
On shellfish: how does the observation that eating rotten fish makes you sick proof of anything other than the value of observation? It actually just proves how religious beliefs and texts can arise from purely natural and predictable experiences.
And if we all lived by Lev, we'd look a lot like the Taliban.
"I am a citizen of the world, my religion is to do good."
--Thomas Paine.
Sin, in the original language, is defined as "missing the mark" It is a term referring to archers, shooting at a target.
God, The Creator of the Universe, set certain rules for us to follow. They are His rules. He makes the law. If we disobey that law, we are accursed, and can only be saved from punishment by God's mercy.
All sin can be encompassed in one word: Rebellion. Anytime you have a question about whether what you want to do is a sin or not, in God's eyes, ask yourself if what you want to do is for your glory, or the glory of God.
If it is for your glory, it is most likely rebellion against God.
I recently hammered out (My fat hammy hands are too clumsy to call it typed out)a sermon on a seperate blog, which helps explain the real definition od "sin"
Here
is where you may find it.
Oh, here is where I got the notion that rebellion against God is the real sin:
1st Samuel 15:23 says, "For rebellion is like the sin of divination (some Bibles might say witchcraft), and arrogance like the sin of idolatry".
God calls rebellion a sin!
By the way, Sol makes the same mistake most un-believers make. They think the words, "Christianity and religious" are the same thing. They are not. One can wash his car religiously. And Christians are not necessarily religious.
Solomon--
On shellfish: it is all but impossible for the casual diner, sitting at the oyster bar, to know whether or not the oysters being shucked right in front of him/er are infected with a deadly bacteria. It's not a matter of observation.
As to your statistics touting the superiority of Blue State Moral Behavior... I think you paint too rosy a picture. Sin is spread evenly across the board, and has no preference to the color of any given state.
Mark--
I think you can go one further on your definition of sin-- or what it all boils down to. If you think about it, every sin committed has its root in Selfishness. Rebellion-- it could be said --is merely an out-growth of Selfishness.
But that's not to say all selfishness is a bad thing. One has to consider what's in ones own best interest on occasion. Example: I have just enough cash to feed my kids tonight, but a homeless guy is begging for money. Do I give him half of, say, ten bucks, and make my hypothetical 3 kids eat on the remaining five? I could buy the guy a couple of double cheeseburgers at McD's for a buck a piece [plus tax] and have more for my kids, but thinking of my kids welfare before that of the homeless man, while fundamentally selfish, is not necessarily a bad thing.
The shellfish comment was in response to Tugboat. That someone simply realized that eating shellfish often made people sick and banned its consumption is no "proof of a higher guiding intelligence," despite Tugboat's claim.
And I don't claim that blue states are superior. Just that the statistics go to show that red staters' claims that immoral liberals are screwing up the country are rather silly.
as a christian...you are not under Law. and allah means God....its not his name.
this topic is pissing me off.
who are you solomon?
Tu-- I'm a male, 39, and I live in California now (though I have lived all over the US as an adult- NY, TN, TX, WI, WA, AZ).
The law bit was just for fun.
What is pissing you off (besides the fact that we all seem to be speaking different languages and talking past each other)? Just curious.
well solomon it pisses me off when people say muslims have no rights to "God".
oh and I wasn't mad at you at all!!.....I agree with you ,
that is why I wanted to know who you are.
Everyone has the right to pursue God, but no one has the power to shape God to their will. God is God. He has one Truth, one Faith, and one path to follow. He gave us all intelligence enough to find and follow the right path. The problem, however, lies in Man's inability to accept that he has nothing God needs, and therefore cannot earn His favor.
God want's our love, adoration, worship... but He will be glorified which ever path we choose. Whether we reside in Heaven, or burn in hell, God is still glorified.
The sad fact is, some are right in their worship of God, and some are wrong. God, however, is less generous than I in this. He say's "narrow is the path... and few there are that find it."
Muslims have a right to pursue God, but their religion, and the violence it foments and spreads, speaks to the fact that they have yet to find the narrow path. Rather than condemn Muslims-- which I often find myself doing --We/I should instead pray for them.
please know again I am not attacking you,
just asking questions....for myself maybe.
people forget the bloody and ugly past of ALL religons and people. just because we live in a time in history were a group of muslims are acting out, doesnt make the rest of us always innocent. I'm not sticking up for THEM either, but look how we all react....saying things against an entire population..like they have no place in the world and they don't worship god. I am sure many many do. And I believe God showed himself to people in many ways...all paths still lead to christ. It's the road you take that makes a diffrence. not what "religon" you are. you should follow the laws Jesus set....not moses....we were given a new testement.
As an outside commentator, just a couple of notes:
"The sad fact is, some are right in their worship of God, and some are wrong."
That's your opinion. I have met plenty of Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, who would say they know their religion is right and yours is wrong. Thus my earlier point: when it comes to turning belief into policy, who gets to decide? Whatever religion is in the majority? Would you enjoy living under strict Mormon rule in Utah?
"Muslims have a right to pursue God, but their religion, and the violence it foments and spreads, speaks to the fact that they have yet to find the narrow path."
But Christianity has also fomented enormous violence in the past (and still does in many quarters, e.g., abortion clinic bombings). This is not a pass on Islam or an attack on Christianity, just an observation that your logic can't prove that Christianity is the narrow path or that Islam is not.
"Rather than condemn Muslims-- which I often find myself doing --We/I should instead pray for them."
Aha! Although this is more than a little patronizing, it's quite an epiphany. This is exactly the "love your neighbor/enemy" teaching I was referring to.
It would be a much better world if people found a little more humility and started following the teachings of their religions rather than trying to force their beliefs on others through violence or legislation.
The history of Islam is violence; from its inception to present day. It's founder was a violent, and most unholy man. The Quran is an advocate for violence and injustice, from beginning to end... the same cannot be said of the Bible.
Violence cannot be justified in the name of God, but it's interesting that you mention only Abortion Clinic Bombings, as perhaps proof that Christianity cannot be the "right path." But Muslim violence against non Muslim people [ignoring completely the violence they perpetrate upon members of their own religion] burns bright as a sun compared to the flare of a single match that is Abortion Clinic Bombings. There are lunatics in every religion. The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Lunacy comes standard with Islam. It is merely aberration in the halls of Christianity.
I should also point out Islam is a religion one is born to. A muslim is Muslim from womb to tomb; not so with Christianity. Many call themselves Christians, but most are not; they have never been "born again."
Every man/woman has within them a conscience. And without fail, that conscience identifies certain things as right and wrong. Unless a man or woman sees him/herself as a sinner in need of a savior, he/she will never bother seeking a savior.
Lot's of people sit on church pews. Lot's sing hymns, nod in agreement at the right times, and say all the right things, but its what's in the heart that defines a Christian... Not what he does.
Christians... real Christians... for all that they are saved from the punishment to come, still reside in a body of flesh, and are still subject to sin and temptation.
If you're looking for perfection, look to God, for no Christian is perfect.
The old Testament does not define what a Christian should be. It is merely a crash course in God and his chosen people, and a shadow of God's ultimate plan for salvation. And the Law is a school master, clearly illustrating why man needs God.
God made a way for man to be free of his sin. And it's not "Bring the world under Submission to Allah." Nor is it, "sell fruit to earn your way into heaven," or "Sell this Watchtower magazine, be good, but if not, don't worry... God is too loving to actually keep his word and punish you in a literal lake of fire."
God took on mortal flesh, and walked among us, taking in our experiences, living without sin, so that, as the perfect picture of a sacrificial lamb upon the temple altar, the punishment for our sins might be put upon him, instead of where they surely belong... upon us.
If one genuinely seeks truth, he will find it; God will put that truth in his path. Whether we choose to accept it is entirely up to us.
But there is only one Truth, and God has already given us the means by which to recognize it. Our Conscience. It testifies to the Truth of God, and we either harden our hearts or gladly accept the gift He freely offers.
No other "Religion" can measure up to this. For Christianity is not religion, it is faith. And before you say they are the same thing, look again.
Religion says, "I will work to make myself worthy of God's love."
Faith say, "I will trust in the Lord to save me from my sin."
Faith trumps Religion.
"...all paths still lead to Christ."
If all paths lead to Christ, there would be no Muslims, no Jews, no Hindus.... if all paths lead to Christ, everyone would worship the same God. But we do not all worship the same God.
There is no confusion in truth, and no confusion in God. There are many religions out there, all speaking different and opposing truths. But as there is only one God, there is also only one truth that leads to Him.
"...you should follow the laws Jesus set.... not Moses....we were given a New Testement."
It is true that the Christian need not fear the Law; the Christian is no longer subject to it. Instead we are under Grace. But every non-Christian in the world will still answer to God by the Law. The Law shows us our sin, and speaks to our heart the knowledge that we need a savior; we need Jesus. We either repent and accept God, or we remain doomed to one day stand before God and be judged by the Law.
It is far better to be under the Grace of God than it is to be under the weight of the Law. The former will save you, the latter will crush you.
"There is no confusion in truth, and no confusion in God. There are many religions out there, all speaking different and opposing truths. But as there is only one God, there is also only one truth that leads to Him."
like I said that one path/truth is christ.... jesus!
and christians and jews also have a history full of war.
how do you stick up for jews only?
They are Gods chosen people because he picked them as they were slaves of a great Kingdom....to reveal himself to the world through....not that they are special above all people....
then they messed it up.
and the beginings of Islam is... the angel Gabrieal came to mohammed and proclaimed the gospel. The same one given the shepherds in the field......
Then they messed it up.
and christians hear the gospel to...then they mess it up.
Of other religons I cant say.....
But there is only one God. It is how people chose to worship him that makes a diffrence not what they call them selves.
and I guess "Law" would depend on your definition of the word.
More of ELAshley's theological logorrhea.
Sheesh.
By the way, thanks for your thoughtful comments Tu. It's good to be reminded as often as possible that not all Christians want to dehumanize those whose beliefs differ from theirs.
ELAshley, your parsing of faith and religion, and your separation of Christianity from other religions on this point make little sense. Note that religion can be entirely personal, and faith can be in regard to institutionalized beliefs.
From Webster:
Religion: 1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural 2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 3) a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
Faith: 1) belief and trust in and loyalty to God 2) belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion 3) firm belief in something for which there is no proof
And your observation that Muslims are Muslims from cradle to grave is erroneous and sounds made up.
solomon...I hope I will see your name around again.
Agreed. Come back anytime.
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