Pocket Full of Mumbles

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Sunday, August 13, 2006

Is he? Or isn't he?

NOTE: I'm using the here's more link on this one...


I've wanted to leave this alone ever since I saw it first posted at ER's place. Day's later I found a commentary making sharp use of the word 'Apostasy' in it's title. So what I did was step back, and let it all settle in my head. I wanted to just walk on by, but I can't... I have to throw in my own two cents-- and that's about all my opinion is worth on this.

Evangelist Billy Graham was recently featured in Newsweek; a nice lengthy article extrapolated from interviews over a period of 'months'. And in it is food for either great praise... Or scorn, depending on what's in your heart, or rather who. I've seen articles over the years blasting Graham as an apostate, and I've always ignored them. Then I come across high praise for the article and Mr. Graham at the Erudite Redneck. Normally, this alone would make me suspicious, but thankfully there's this ever present sense of warning deep inside that cautions against speaking ill against God's anointed (where that verse is, at present escapes me-- some help would be appreciated), which is why I approached Tom Flannery's stinging commentary, Billy Graham's Apostasy, with great caution.

Last year I began a series of articles called, Lessons in Thinking for One's Self, establishing for myself a set of criteria for determining what is and what is not true... In essense to learn enough to not allow others to pull the wool over my eyes. The series is unfinished-- I got distracted --but what's there is enough of an illustration for anyone reading to understand how I approach the news, opinion, and conversation... most of the time. In my last post I mentioned the fact that I like to 'create constructs to support what I believe.' The aforementioned 'Lessons' are no different.

It's not enough to take what Newsweek has written-- what ER and his visitors have commented, and Mr. Flannery's rebuke --unchallenged, without first studying the language. Assuming of course Newsweek has accurately quoted Mr. Graham in regard to context. And Context is extremely important.

With all this in mind allow me now to address the article in question.

One thing Mr. Flannery seems to not have realized is that articles are largely the opinions and impression of the writer. True impressions, generally, but personal nonetheless. However honest the writer, personal impressions are still not completely reliable; revisiting this blog's namesake we encounter this bit of secular wisdom for an illustration... "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..."

A unifying theme of Graham's new thinking is humility. He is sure and certain of his faith in Jesus as the way to salvation. When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have."
I can understand why Mr. Flannery would get all bent out of shape by this statement, but please note what Graham's statement does NOT say... That good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus [and] secular people WILL enter into heaven. I am not a Graham apologist, but in all fairness the only thing I see here is humility. No one can know what God has in store for any "good" person, and from the author's own impression, Graham is "certain of his faith in Jesus as the way to salvation." Granted, the word 'only' does not appear in that statement, but realistically 'only' is not necessary for exclusivity. 'The' is quite sufficient. One could say, " 'The' key to the front door is under the mat." But what about the key in my pocket? It fits the lock too. But my car key will not open the front door, so not any keys will do the trick... It requires a specific key, designed and shaped specifically for the lock.

"There are many things that I don't understand," [Graham] says. He does not believe that Christians need to take every verse of the Bible literally; "sincere Christians," he says, "can disagree about the details of Scripture and theology — absolutely."
Since not every verse in the bible is meant to be taken literally, I see no problem here either. Some verses are allegorical, some are figurative, while many many more are indeed literal. Imagine trying to convince a Pharisee of Jesus' day that Daniel meant a 'literal' beast would rise out of the sea with ten horns...

"I'm not a literalist in the sense that every single jot and tittle is from the Lord," Graham says. "This is a little difference in my thinking through the years." He has, then, moved from seeing every word of Scripture as literally accurate to believing that parts of the Bible are figurative — a journey that began in 1949, when a friend challenged his belief in inerrancy during a conference in southern California's San Bernardino Mountains. Troubled, Graham wandered into the woods one night, put his Bible on a stump and said, "Lord, I don't understand all that is in this book, I can't explain it all, but I accept it by faith as your divine word."
Grahams first statement is troubling. Jesus Himself said not one jot or tittle shall depart from the law until all things are fulfilled, but this by no means earns Graham the "Apostasy" label. Furthermore, Graham demonstrated the perfect attitude by admitting to God the he "can't explain it all, but [he] accept[s] it by faith..."

"I think about heaven a great deal, I think about the failures in my life in the past, but know that they have been covered by the blood of Christ, and that gives me a great sense of confidence," says Graham. "I have a certainty about eternity that is a wonderful thing, and I thank God for giving me that certainty. I do not fear death. I may fear a little bit about the process, but not death itself, because I think the moment that my spirit leaves this body, I will be in the presence of the Lord."
Here Graham reflects on his failures-- we all have them --but he is confident of heaven because his sins are covered by the blood of Christ... and God has given him assurance. Now, how can a man say his confidence is based upon the shed blood of Christ covering his sins, and state that good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus [and] secular people can enter heaven without the same shed blood of Christ? He can't. Nor has he stated this anywhere in quoted text. The impression that all these adherents of all these diverse religions can make it too heaven without the shed blood of Christ is the author's take on Graham's beliefs.

Now, from Flannery's piece we get the following...

In a profile of Graham in the current issue of Newsweek, managing editor Jon Meacham asks the 87-year-old evangelist whether those who belong to religions that reject Christ as savior (Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and secularists will be saved.
Nooo... Sorry, that's not what was said. It is quite clear from the Newsweek piece that Graham relies on the blood of Christ to pay his sin debt. It is also quite clear from Graham's most recent crusade tour that he still preaches the blood. So what has honestly changed?

In all of Flannery's article the only actual Graham quote is the one attributed above. The rest are strenuous objections to the impressions of Jon Meacham the Newsweek article's author.

Tom Flannery, however, is not at all wrong on his defense of the Gospel. And no where in the Newsweek piece does Graham reject the Gospel-- Read both for yourselves. So let's look at Flannery's arguments.

Of course, it's true that Christ is the eternal Judge and will determine who spends eternity with Him and who does not. But it's also true that He has told us plainly, through His personal testimony and the many corroborations contained in His Word, that it is only by believing in Him that a person can be saved.

He is, after all, the One who said of Himself: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live." (John 11:25)
I haven't read anything in the Newsweek piece that says Graham believes otherwise.

In the Newsweek profile, Graham explains his new thinking thus: "I believe the love of God is absolute. He said He gave His Son for the whole world, and I think He loves everybody regardless of what label they have."

Indeed, He does. John 3:16 assures us: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ..." The question isn't whether God loves every one of us or not, but why would He allow His beloved Son to die on the cross? He answers that question in the conclusion of this same verse. It is so that "... whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (emphasis mine). Because He loves us so much, Christ took the punishment we deserved for our sins and died in our place on the cross because it was the only way that any of us could ever be saved.
Mr. Flannery injects his own reasoning here-- reasoning even I am guilty of! He accuses Graham of 'new thinking' even going so far as to say Graham felt the need to defend his reasoning by way of explanation. It is true that Jesus died for everybody despite any labels they attribute to themselves, but this doesn't mean Graham believes that a man, apart from the shed blood of Christ, has even the remotest chance of entering heaven. Graham could be more forward with his defense of the shed blood of Christ, but this hardly amounts to apostasy.

Graham's redefining of salvation doctrine also separates him from any number of others who were considered radicals in their day.

One of them was the apostle Paul, who wrote by inspiration of God: "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5)
Graham's own acceptance of the shed blood of Christ as reason for his assurance of heaven, does not contradict this. Nor does any other impression given by Jon Meacham concerning Graham's supposed 'new thinking.'

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) This verse is a four-fold declaration of the truth that salvation is found only in Christ, and in Christ alone.

How much clearer can it be?

Well, even more important is the testimony of one other "radical" ... Jesus Himself, who declared unequivocally: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)


So Tom Flannery isn't wrong about the Gospel. He's dead on. But he's jumped to a few conclusions based on the impressions of another writer, rather than the actual words of Billy Graham. Has Graham mellowed with age? I think that's a safe bet... everyone mellows with age. Is Graham an apostate? I honestly don't think so, and that's judging the tree strictly by it's fruit. No one could do what Billy Graham has done if God were not with him. Has Billy Graham made mistakes? Does he cast a shadow beneath the noon-day sun? Besides which, he's admitted as much.

The simple truth is, no one get's to God except by Jesus. After all God had suffered to make salvation possible, it would be a great affront to Him to tell the world "you can get there another way." No. You can't. Jesus Himself said as much...

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

The one who wants us all to believe otherwise is the enemy... Or an agent of the enemy.

26 Comments:

Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Worth pondering. These people are Christians, not the enemy.

(Go to www.crosswalkamerica.org and click on "The Phoenix Affirmations" for more information.)


Walking fully in the path of Jesus, without denying the legitimacy of other paths God may provide humanity;

Matthew 11:28-29; John 8:12; John 10:16; Mark 9:40

As Christians, we find spiritual awakening, challenge, growth, and fulfillment in Christ’s birth, life, death, and resurrection. While we have accepted the Path of Jesus as our Path, we do not deny the legitimacy of other paths God may provide humanity. Where possible, we seek lively dialog with those of other faiths for mutual benefit and fellowship.

We affirm that the Path of Jesus is found wherever love of God, neighbor, and self are practiced together. Whether or not the path bears the name of Jesus, such paths bear the identity of Christ.

We confess that we have stepped away from Christ’s Path whenever we have failed to practice love of God, neighbor, and self, or have claimed Christianity is the only way, even as we claim it to be our way.


NOTE: It says *Christianity* is not the only way; it does not say that Jesus is not the only way.

August 14, 2006 11:14 AM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Fine essay and I think I am in agreement with you for the most part.

One thought. You said:

"The simple truth is, no one get's to God except by Jesus. After all God had suffered to make salvation possible, it would be a great affront to Him to tell the world "you can get there another way." No. You can't. Jesus Himself said as much..."

And that is fine. My question is, what does it mean to "accept Jesus in to your heart"? Saying a prayer and walking an aisle? Having an emotional breakdown moment where you realize that you're a sinner in need of Jesus' salvation?

(And I'm not saying that you're limiting salvation to any particular "style," just bringing up typical scenarios.)

What some of us who tend to get called "universalists" (which I'm not, really) believe is that the Bible indicates different ways of "accepting Jesus." Jesus himself told the story of the two brothers who were given a direction by their father. One said Yes, but didn't do it, the other said No, but did it.

And as Jesus illustrated in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the difference between the two was in what they did - and didn't - do.

All of which is not to indicate a salvation by works, but rather that "accepting Jesus," for some of us, means accepting his teachings. Recognizing that "our ways" are wrong and that Jesus' ways are right. And you can accept those teachings (it seems to us by the two stories cited) whether or not you intend to accept "Jesus."

In one of the Narnia stories, Lewis tells about a soldier for the false God, Tash, who served Tash believing in the good that he wrongly thought Tash stood for. Aslan, in the end, lets this soldier in. When the soldier asks about it:

But I said, "Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash." He answered, "Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me."

Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, "Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one?"

The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, "It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him..."


Which I've always thought was a great passage...

August 14, 2006 11:54 AM  
Blogger Eric said...

Dan--

Thanks for your comment.

In respect to the examples you offer...

The two sons: they were sons, not bastards, not illegitimate, but sons... Even as the prodigal son was still a son, despite sinning 'against Heaven' (Luke 15:18). Jesus makes several references to sons and not-sons. Jesus even distinguishes between the successes his disciples will have-- not everyone gets the same return from their investment, but all have labored, and everyone is rewarded according to their works. Yes, Salvation is not earned by works, but rewards are.

As to the sheep and goats referenced in Matthew 25:31:46-- The time frame seems to indicate it occurs at the end of Revelation --the sheep are allowed to enter into the kingdom... the goats are not. So what happens to the goats? Are they cast into the lake of fire? Is that what Jesus meant by "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" ?

Sonship is required for salvation. We must be made joint heirs with Christ through His finished work at the cross. THAT is the ONLY way to salvation. If Jews or Hindus or Muslims make it into heaven, it will be because at some point in their lives they believed the report that Jesus was the son of God, and that He died for their sins and rose from the dead. They may still identify themselves as Muslims or Hindus, culturally speaking, but God will see them as bought by His own blood. --Acts 20:28 KJV

Now, as to...

We affirm that the Path of Jesus is found wherever love of God, neighbor, and self are practiced together. Whether or not the path bears the name of Jesus, such paths bear the identity of Christ.

Not so. Especially the part about love of self. We are told to DIE to self each and every day. The only path that bears the identity of Christ is that path which requires an individual to walk under the cross, and be covered by the shed blood of Christ. That much is clear as crystal; not just from Jesus' own lips, but from the Gospel preached by Paul, Peter, John, James, Luke, Matthew, and Mark.

Jesus' death paid for every man's sin, but not every man will accept that gift. That much is also clear. furthermore, Paul warns the church against those who preach any Gospel other than what they have already received. --Galatians 1:8-9

It is true that God is not willing that any perish, which is why He provided a way that all might come to Him.... but that way is through Jesus, and no other.

Folks who preach the line "You don't have to stop being a Muslim or Hindu to be a child of God" is doing that person a grave disservice, and the one who stumbles across the threshold of death without Christ because he believed he could come to God without believing the Gospel... That man will find himself in hell, and his blood God will require at the hands of him who spread that false gospel.

August 14, 2006 1:34 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Does one have to have heard the name of Jesus of Nazareth to be saved? Or does one only have to come to the place where one knows one can't reach -- get, commune with, fellowship with, use whichever word suits you -- God and in faith relies on the Creator, alone, to have provided a Way?

As to love of self: Then what does it mean to love one's neighbor as one's self? You jumped from self-love in that context to self-denial as if they are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are.

Also, I don't believe anything in what I reefered suggested that the Gospel allows someone to "be a Muslim, Hindu, whatever" and to be saved. Jesus is The Way. I'm just not convinced that full mental familiarity with the story is necessary for one to be saved.

It's that other stuff: I can't do it. I surrender. I surrender all -- and for those of who think we know what's what, I think that includes even certitude of salvation if it rests in ANY way on our own understanding.

In Baptistspeak (or what used to be Baptistspeak!):

I am not saved because I believe. I believe because I am saved.

August 14, 2006 1:50 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

In answer to your first question; does one have to have heard the name Jesus of Nazareth to be saved?

I think Romans 10:9-10 are quite clear on that point. How, if no one can come to the father but by Jesus, does one attain salvation? How about this scenario?

A muslim/hindu/otherwise-lost-person cries out to God and says something like, "God, if you are really there, tell me how I can find peace, tell me how I can know you..." God will send that man or woman someone or something as a signpost to point the way to Jesus. It still requires that individual to believe and accept what God has put in his/er path. The real question then is one echoed centuries before by Pontius Pilate, "What then shall I do with the man Jesus?" How an individual answers that question will determine his ultimate fate.

Such a one may reject that invitation initially, but God is patient, and tries again, and again, because He is not willing that any perish... But His spirit will not always strive with man. sooner or later, a man's unbelief will drive the spirit of God away, their heart will become a stone, and no amount of preaching, pleading, begging, or pricking of the conscience will save such a one. The bible says 'seek ye the Lord while he may be found,' and 'Today is the day of salvation.'

August 14, 2006 2:50 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Good answer! But (there's always a "but"!)

Romans 10: 9-10 says what it says. But you are inferring a negative that isn't there.

It does say:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

It does *not* say: If you do not ... then you will not be saved. Paul was writing to a community of Christians. He was explaining the mechanics of what they, having heard the Gospel, did believe.


A few verses down, the door *seems* to be open a little further:

11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

NOW, I confess I do not know, because I have not looked it up, whether "him" in verse 11 refers to Jesus or the Father; and whether "Lord" in verse 13 refers to Jesus or the father; and I further confess that I'm not sure it makes much difference.

Verses 14-15 say what they say, too: Go! Teach! Preach! But it seems to me to be in the form of an admonishment to the believers in Rome to seek out those who by faith already WERE crying out to God to be "saved" -- from what, depending on their own specific cultures, but in all cases from themSELVES.

In other words, go tell them Who it is they long for -- and help them toward the fullness of the rudimentary (for lack of better word) salvation that their desperate faith in God has already initiated.

Check this out. It's a review of a book I read in 1981, when I was 17-18, that has ever since caused me, with my puny, limited understanding, to get out of God's way as he saves those who reach out to Him.

http://christdot.org
/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1715

August 14, 2006 3:27 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

"But His spirit will not always strive with man. sooner or later, a man's unbelief will drive the spirit of God away, their heart will become a stone"

Here is where I both agree and depart from you: Yes, I think the above is true. But it is unbelief in God's/Jesus' teachings that is at question here (whether or not one has heard of the God/Man Jesus) not some vague "accepting of Jesus into your heart..."

I think both ER and I were brought up Baptist (at least I was), hearing and believing that whole "Today is the day of salvation - uh! Will you accept Jesus into your heart - uh!?" kind of preaching, pleading with us to "accept Jesus." Which I agree with.

But it is accepting Jesus' teaching that is what I'm talking about when I talk about accepting Jesus. And one can do that without having heard of Jesus' specific teachings.

If, as CS Lewis alludes to, one hears and accepts that we ought to love our enemies, that God is love, that we are to be concerned with and in solidarity with the poor, etc, through Buddha or thru Allah - never having heard Jesus' name mentioned, one is STILL accepting Jesus' teachings, no?

August 14, 2006 4:11 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Active unbelief is a form of selfishness in the face of the self-evidence of God, as in the creation itself crying out, and these stones can be made to praise God, etc., etc. Yes. Active unbelief is no belief is no faith and therein lies no salvation.

Active FAITH, in God, trusting that He has bridged the obvious chasm between myself and His Self, and all that comes with it -- peace, longing to do good, not to *earn* anything or to *pay back* something, but because it seems like the obvious thing to do when one is bound up and caught up and wrapped up in God's love -- a-huh! -- THATS's a relationship with God through Christ because there is no salvation through any other.

I believe those who believe, and trust, and live a life of love, or strive to -- without ever having heard the name of Jesus -- I think they might be the "other sheep" Jesus spoke of.

Note, brethren, that that is a very different thing from saying "it doesn't matter what one believes," or "it doesn't matter whether one is Christian or Hindu or Jewish or Muslim or Jainist or Buddhist" or whatever.

It affirms that Jesus is The Way. It leaves room for God to work outside overt "missionary" efforts.

Because God can do so -- and I believe He does. He must. For to lay the blame for generations of lost souls at the feet of the Body of Christ, or any member thereof, for lack of technology to overcome geography, the lack of knowledge to overcome differences in language, and the lack of common heritage to overcome culture, well, it ain't right, it ain't fittin' and it ain't loving nor just on the part of God. Yet he is both.

Dan, BTW, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church; dallied with United Methodists in the '90s, but retained membershop in the churhc I was baptized in until last month when I joined a Congregational/UCC church.

August 14, 2006 5:41 PM  
Blogger tugboatcapn said...

Wait a minute...

ER, Dan...Do you not both believe that the Bible is not to be taken literally?

I mean, the Bible that Defines Sin is the same Bible that lays out the plan of Salvation.

How are we to know that God has not changed His mind about the plan of Salvation, the same way that you assert that He has about what is and is not Sin?

Maybe He has actually become Allah by now.

Who are we to judge?

If the History that is recorded in the Bible is only legend, and the definition of Sin in the Bible is only the influence of the men who wrote the Bible and of the time period during which it was penned and translated, then why is the plan of Salvation anything more than a simple suggestion?

Do you, EITHER of you believe anything to be absolute?

If you do, then you have put yourself in the position of filtering God's Word to pick the Truth out of it.

You are just as well off studying the Holy Scriptures of Narnia.

August 14, 2006 6:58 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

Dan--

"If, as CS Lewis alludes to, one hears and accepts that we ought to love our enemies, that God is love, that we are to be concerned with and in solidarity with the poor, etc, through Buddha or thru Allah - never having heard Jesus' name mentioned, one is STILL accepting Jesus' teachings, no?"

Accepting the teachings of Christ, even unwittingly, is not the same as accepting the man Christ Jesus. Throughout the entire new testament, Paul and the others preached Christ crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, ascended into heaven, sitting at the right hand of God, and returning soon to judge the quick and the dead. Every verse speaks to the debt of sin being paid by Christ, and because He was God in flesh, God himself. As to what becomes of all the Amazonian tribes and Eskimos who knew nothing of God or Christ Jesus for centuries, I will have to plead the same as the man Billy Graham...

"Lord, I don't understand all that is in this book, I can't explain it all, but I accept it by faith as your divine word."

In that sense I will admit I have no idea what God will do with these people. But that doesn't change what God said about His son Jesus, and what Jesus said about Himself... "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

God did span the chasm between His righteousness and Man's sinful nature... and that bridge is Christ Jesus. How do we get around that?

Perhaps it's the Law; our God-given conscience. Paul wrote that those who have no knowledge of the Law still have the Law written on their hearts. A child doesn't have to be told it's done a bad thing by telling a lie; their conscience tells them they've done a bad thing, because our conscience IS God's Law written on our hearts. Without an honest, genuine acceptance of Jesus and the work He performed at Calvary, for those who have never heard of Jesus, will God not judge such men by the Law? And if no one can keep the law, what does that say about such men's chances of escaping hell?

I admit I don't understand it all either-- Mr. Graham is a lot wiser than I, but I DO know God will judge righteously every man, woman, and child ever born. First by whether or not their names are written in the Lambs book of Life, or by their works at the great white throne judgment.

On a side note: CS Lewis was a great Christian Apologist, writing a lot of wonderful books, but I wouldn't substitute anything he's written for the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and every other book before or after.

August 14, 2006 9:53 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Tug, without going fully where you and I have gone before, I'll say only this, as I've said repeatedly:

I take the Bible seriously. I do not take all of it literally. I assert that reason is as much a tool for us to use in working out our salvation as is faith -- and I declare that blind faith in the face of unreason is a denial of God's creation (the ability he gave us to THINK).

And I believe that to accept the Bible as the "inerrant, etc., etc." "Word of God" -- to confuse the idea with the real concept of the Word of God, The Logos, Christ Himelf -- is a form of idolatry. At the very least, it requires something more akin to superstition than it does faith.

I take the Bible more seriously than you do, in other words, in some ways.

We differ on how to deal with the Bible, brother. Can we leave it at that?

One thing I do not believe is absolute: My own understanding.
I've never asserted that anything about God has changed. I believe strongly that humankind's concept of God -- never full, never complete -- has changed dramatically over time -- from the beginning of the Old Testament, to the Prophets, to Jesus.

You can read, man. Use your. There either are several kinds of Gods written about in the Bible -- which is sacrilege, isn't it? -- or there is an evolving (pardon the expression) concept of God, which. is. faith.

August 14, 2006 10:10 PM  
Blogger tugboatcapn said...

"It leaves room for God to work outside overt "missionary" efforts.

Because God can do so -- and I believe He does. He must. For to lay the blame for generations of lost souls at the feet of the Body of Christ, or any member thereof, for lack of technology to overcome geography, the lack of knowledge to overcome differences in language, and the lack of common heritage to overcome culture, well, it ain't right, it ain't fittin' and it ain't loving nor just on the part of God. Yet he is both.


ER, that is a nifty little position you got there.
It allows you to be a Christian without the inconvenience of having to directly accept any responsibility for spreading the message of Salvation.

It lets you be a Christian without having to proselytizing, or evangelizing, beyond setting a good example.

It allows you to be a Christian, and still support "a woman's right to choose", still support the ACLU's efforts to make everyone keep their Bibles, as well as their belief in God locked up safe at home in the closet, where personal things belong.

It lets you be a Christian without bothering anybody.

Brilliant!

Where is that supported Biblically? (I mean besides in broad generalities like "God is Love" and such?)

I CAN read, ER. And I do read the Bible.

I am not reading it looking for a way to make the message of Jesus square with my politics.

August 15, 2006 2:46 AM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

"Do you not both believe that the Bible is not to be taken literally?"

No. Nor does elashley, nor do you.

Do you pluck your eye out when it causes you to sin? Do you chop your hand off when it causes you to sin?

Do you wear polyester? Do you use banks? Do you kill gays? Do you kill disobedient childrent? Eat shrimp? Sell all you have?

No one takes the bible literally. It's not meant to be taken literally. We all have to discern which parts are allegorical, hyperbole, parable, etc, etc, etc.

Right?

August 15, 2006 6:05 AM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

On the other hand, I - like ER and hopefully y'all, too - take the Bible quite seriously. I believe and take the Truths of the Bible literally (as well as this fallible human mind can understand).

So, when you ask, Tug, "do EITHER of you believe anything to be absolute?"

Then answer is an unqualified, Yes. I believe Jesus literally meant it when he commanded us to Love our enemies. I believe in overcoming evil with good. That is absolutely clear in the Bible.

I believe absolutely that the Bible literally means we should identify with, side with, join with the poor in solidarity. Front to back, that is a biblical truth to be observed, as are the MANY harsh warnings against the dangers of wealth and the love of money.

"How are we to know that God has not changed His mind about the plan of Salvation"

Which plan is that, Tug? The "Roman Road"? John 3:16? "Sell all you have and give it to the poor?" Or, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling?" Which plan?

The modern church has selected out a handful of verses and made them into an easily-marketed "Plan of Salvation,"(TM) that is all fine and good, but it is not the end all and be all of what God taught us.

August 15, 2006 6:17 AM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Tug, I'm simply not going to let you make this personal. This has been a great, honest, open discussion. You're trying to ruin it. If you think I meant any of that, it's come from your own head, not anything I've written.

And I absolutely deny that I'm shaping my view of Scripture to fit my politics. I declare, before God and man, that it is absolutely the other way around. That that or leave it.

August 15, 2006 11:42 AM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

BTW,re:

"It leaves room for God to work outside overt "missionary" efforts."

There's another way to put that, which you migth have heard of, Tug:

The sovereignty of God.

August 15, 2006 11:44 AM  
Blogger tugboatcapn said...

Okay.

I'm sorry I interrupted you while you were pontificating.

Please, carry on.

August 15, 2006 3:34 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Here's my other cheek. Take another whack, Tug.

August 15, 2006 3:38 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Oh yeah. My answer to the question posed in the headline of this post:

No, of course not, Billy Graham is no apostate.


"apostate n. One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause."

BTW, that would make me an apostate political conservative (it's true: a long, long time ago), and an apostate Christian fundamentalist (almost equally long ago, about ninth grade for both). Can't think of anything else I've abandoned.

Oh, I don't eat jalapenos much anymore, 'cause while I like them, they no longer like me, as they say. So I am an apostate of that particular kind of Capsicum annuum, or something like that.

:-)

August 15, 2006 4:19 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

This debate has been instructive, and surprisingly polite. I'm personally of the belief that apart from Christ no one has hope of salvation. For Christ is the only mediator between God and man... the only propitiation for sin. As to how God the father will deal, specifically with those who never heard the name 'Jesus,' I can't honestly say-- that's His business. What I DO know is He commanded all of us to go into the world, the uttermost parts of the earth, and preach the gospel; that Jesus died for the sin of all mankind, and invite every single person who hears that message to believe and accept Jesus and Savior, King-- and ultimately, God.

I began this post to illustrate how easily people, myself included, fall for the rhetoric of personal impression. Mr. Flannery took Meacham's Newsweek article and Meacham's impressions of Grahams 'supposedly' new understanding of the bible and attached a label that hardly fits. Again, no man could have done all Billy Graham has done if God were not with him. But I don't believe Billy Graham isn't any more tolerant of the sin of homosexuality, the sin of sexual immorality, the sin of murder, bigotry, whatever... that before. But he HAS mellowed with age. The fire no longer seems to roar as high, but the coals are still bright and hot, hot enough to cook up some mighty fine burgers, or perfectly seasoned filet. Graham's simply not willing to consign anyone to hell for the life s/he lives, as it should be-- that is God's pervue. Graham appears to be seeing more and more through God's eyes... Which is what we all should be doing.

I have strong beliefs, as do the rest of you, we agree on some points, and not on others. But the only point that's truly important is whether we agree on those things that touch the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, and His Apostles.

Was He born of a virgin?
Did He live a sinless life?
Did he suffer for our sins?
Did He die on a cross?
Was He buried with the rich in a borrowed tomb?
Did He rise from the dead after 3 days?
Did He Ascend to heaven 40 some days later?
Is He presently sitting at the right hand of God, making intersession for the saints?
Is He returning soon?
Did His death pay for all of mankind's sin?
And is He truly The Way, the Truth, and Life?
And is it therefore true that NO man comes to the Father, unless it's through Him?

The gospel message is simple. It's one of hope. For a world WITHOUT hope, isn't this the best news anyone could possibly hear?

Forget the sins of the Church, we all know what power does to people.
God doesn't want us to dwell on the sins of the past once we have confessed and repented, He expects us to move forward. The crusades and the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials... all irrelevant to our mission, today, to spread the gospel. It's all irrelevant... except as a reminder of how off track it is possible to get. We must remain vigilant!

For my part, I've said my peace. And you've all surprised me. I knew our stances and understanding would differ, but I didn't expect to realize we had as much in common as is apparent from this discussion. I will still insist that the bible is God's holy word, that God cannot lie, that Salvation is through Christ alone, but I will plead ignorance on what God intends with all those who have never heard the name of Jesus. I guess we will all have to wait and see....

And as I'm a Pre-Millennialist, I believe we'll see it very soon.

Peace be with you all.

August 15, 2006 4:54 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Instructive, indeed. I'd like to further add, if I may, where you give your list, Elashley, of what is important to believe ("Was He born of a virgin? Did He live a sinless life?..."), you leave out the actual teachings of Jesus.

This is what I'm still trying to get at. I'm fine with your list, but nowhere in the Bible does it tell us we need to believe that list. It's an extrabiblical church tradition that is fine as far as it goes.

But to say THAT is what we need to believe and leave off the teachings of our Savior and God (Do unto others, love enemies, tend to sick, care for/side with the poor, beware of wealth and the wealthy, etc, etc) seems to me to be saying that we must "accept Jesus into our hearts, believe that he rose from the dead and turn from our wicked ways..." but that we need not believe his actual teachings.

Not that you're saying that. But this is my problem with the traditional church. She advocates your list and are only marginally okay with Jesus' actual teachings.

You go to most churches most Sundays and you hear your List preached. You rarely hear Jesus' lessons taught. And what good does it do us to believe, the good book asks. Even the demons in hell believe and shudder.

It is in the acceptance of Jesus and his teachings that we are saved.

August 15, 2006 6:54 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Amen.

I was gonna let slide the rather longish list of what-one-has-to-believe. Doctrine is great, but it won't save anyone.

My list is shorter:

Jesus, and let the serious theologians debate the details, and His teachings, and I'm still learning what all they mean in my life.

August 15, 2006 7:48 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

A person isn't saved by the teachings of Jesus... He/she is saved by the FACT of Jesus; ie, who He is and what He did for us.

I can see your eyebrows climbing your forehead right now... bear with me.

On the day of Pentecost the thousands of people who heard Peter's empassioned spirit-filled speech, believed not on the teachings of Jesus but on the good news that someone was deemed good enough in God's sight to pay for their sins. Following Jesus' teachings would come later, as part of their growth as Christians.

In the Book of Acts, 10th chapter Peter has been summoned to the house of a God-fearing Gentile named Cornelius. After recounting the history of Jesus, in verse 42, and 43 Peter says, "He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

...No mention of believing the teachings of Jesus; that would obviously come later, as Peter and others would teach them "How" to follow Jesus. And there is NOTHING extra-biblical about that.

The same example is demonstrated throughout the Book of Acts and Epistles: to be saved, one must only believe Jesus has paid the price for their sins and place their faith, or trust, in that fact. Growing in Christ, and 'working out one's salvation' comes through learning "How" to follow Jesus.

That's as simply as I know how to put it.

August 15, 2006 8:14 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

Let me also point out that Cornelius and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit before he knew the teaching of Jesus...

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." --Acts 10:45-47

August 15, 2006 8:29 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Almost sounds as if Peter was saying he was saved before he knew about Jesus. Hmmmm...who's case are you making here?

And again, the long List is an extrabiblical thang. I don't have too much problem with it (maybe a few), but not necessary for salvation - as Cornelius' story proves.

August 16, 2006 5:59 AM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

This is brishing awfully close to that age-old question:

When does salvation "engage"? When God offers grace, or when "I" deign to accept it?

I tend to rely more on God than myself, so I tend to rely on God, not my "acceptance" for salvation -- which is probably why I look around and see more saved people than some do.

August 16, 2006 11:19 AM  

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