What is Apostasy?
Taking a page out of ER's book [He likes to put a question out there and see what commenters think], let's take a look at Apostasy. ER, commenting in the previous post asked...
I contend that it is impossible for genuine Christians to become Apostates. In fact, I contend that Apostates are those who have 1. Heard the truth 2. Rejected the truth 3. Ridicule the truth, and 4. Seek to redefine the truth, and that these, in fact, have never been saved.
I realize that, having made the above statement, I've opened a big No. 10 can of worms in light of the OSAS argument, which is critical to my contention.
But what say you? Prove me wrong using scripture.
Discuss...
"Why do you keep calling people who have never exhibited any sort of Christian faith in the first place "apostates"? Doesn't that refer to people who have turned away from the faith? You can't lose what you never had."
I contend that it is impossible for genuine Christians to become Apostates. In fact, I contend that Apostates are those who have 1. Heard the truth 2. Rejected the truth 3. Ridicule the truth, and 4. Seek to redefine the truth, and that these, in fact, have never been saved.
I realize that, having made the above statement, I've opened a big No. 10 can of worms in light of the OSAS argument, which is critical to my contention.
But what say you? Prove me wrong using scripture.
Discuss...
from the mind of... Eric | 12:21 AM
16 Comments:
This much of ER's comment is 'true blue and all the way through'...
"You can't lose what you never had."
A person who is not saved cannot lose their salvation... they never had it in the first place. In point of fact, a person who IS saved cannot lose their salvation either. A saved person cannot become apostate, and an apostate has never been saved. It's as simple as that.
So pull out your theology degrees everyone and let's see what your faith is made of... straw and stubble? or silver and gold?
My personal opinion is once saved always saved. That said, I do think it's possible for someone who is a Christian to be misled and start postulating apostate beliefs. ER is a perfect example of this. I have no doubt that he is a Christian, but he has long since lost his way.
On the other hand, it is also possible for someone to believe in Christ in his head, but not in his heart. The scriptures say even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble at his name. They are not Christians, as Jesus has said a place is reserved for Satan in the bottomless pit.
Mark, I am absoltely an apostate fundamentalist, for I have turned away from fundamentalism in favor of the Gospel. So, get over it.
As for the definitions of words, I prefer the dictionary.
As I'm sure you all realize, there are passages in the Bible that seem to endorse Once saved... ["Nothing can separate us from the love of God..."] and there are other passages that seem to endorse "falling away" ["Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience"].
I'm further sure that you all know that this is an ongoing debate amongst many genuine Christians. I used to spend hours debating this with some of my dear buds growing up, looking at each Bible verse pro and con.
So, rather than rehash the biblical argument right here, I wonder: Do you think that once you're saved, God takes away your free will? Or, rather, do you think someone could choose to say to God, "Thanks for the salvation, but I no longer want it. I reject God and God's salvation"?
I think God will let us do what we want to do, even though it may break God's heart. God will let us support all sort of unGodly ways and God will even let us choose to reject God.
If we can't reject God, then we don't really have free will, do we? Then we'd just be automatons going around doing the Will of our Programmer.
That, of course, is not a strictly biblical answer but rather a bit of reasoning based upon what the Bible says.
Er-- What? The Dictionary over the Bible? :-O!
Dan-- Everyone has free will, even after they are saved. I don't believe anyone who is genuinely saved, can reject God to the point he 'loses' the Gift of salvation God has rewarded based on the blood of Christ applied to that man or woman's sin.
Can they, in anger or rebellion, fall into sin? Assuredly. Can they turn their back on the church for a season? Assuredly. But God will either bring them back into the fold via a series of chastisments or He will call that son or daughter Home rather than see their testimony thoroughly destroyed.
The blood of Christ does not wash off. "And God is not slack concerning His promises as some men count slackness..."
I will say this, however... any person who claims to be a child of God and easily rejects the church and the teachings of Christ; going back to his sin was, quite likely, never saved in the first place... the parable of the sower argues that point quite nicely.
As to your question-- No, free will is not taken away.
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
I John 1:5-10
"As for the definitions of words, I prefer the dictionary."
Look up "Pious", then.
Oh....already done that.
LOL!
I couldn't resist that on, ER. Forgive me?
"Or, rather, do you think someone could choose to say to God, 'Thanks for the salvation, but I no longer want it. I reject God and God's salvation'?"
Sorry, Dan. The person who's ever said that has never experienced salvation at all.
"But God will either bring them back into the fold via a series of chastisments or He will call that son or daughter Home rather than see their testimony thoroughly destroyed."
Again, despite saying you're not, it sounds like you're saying that God will not allow that person to decide to turn his back on God.
"I don't believe anyone who is genuinely saved, can reject God"
Why not? Will God stop them? If so, does that mean God will not let them make that decision?
As I said, there are some passages that seem to hint at OSAS. That 1 John passage does nothing to say that one can't reject God. All it says is that if one is rejecting God, then that person is lying to say that they're following God. True enough. But it doesn't say that they NEVER followed God or "were saved" to put it in the vernacular.
Here's a series of scriptures that deal with the topic:
http://www.bible.ca/cal-P-refutation.htm
Which say things such as:
"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
~Gal 5:4
and:
"Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."
~1 Pet 3:17
And:
"They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness."
~2 Pet 2:15
But, you are free to believe what you want. I'm not especially interested in debating this again as I did then.
All I was wanting to point out was that there are places in the Bible where honest Christians of both viewpoints can point to to find support for their position. It seems to me that the fewer number that seem to support OSAS can be explained away in light of the more passages that seem to support falling from grace. In other words, I can see how one can find support for OSAS, but that's not necessarily the only way to take those verses.
For the record: I used to be in the OSAS camp but my years attending the church of the Nazarene convinced me otherwise.
Peace.
"ny person who claims to be a child of God and easily rejects the church and the teachings of Christ; going back to his sin was, quite likely, never saved in the first place... the parable of the sower argues that point quite nicely."
One more point: Again, the parable of the sower tells us "Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial."
But as to this supports OSAS or falling away is a matter of interpretation. I personally see this as a strong support for falling away. These people received the word with joy! That suggests to me people who have been saved.
But apparently you see it just the opposite.
Which is fine. My point is that the passage is not irrefutably clear and decisive one way or the other.
Similarly for most passages on this topic.
Such a lack of clarity calls for grace, it seems to me. After all, if God can offer it to us, the least we can do is offer it to one another.
"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."
--Matthew 13:5-6
It can of course be debated what this means, but the very fact that these 'had no root' says something about their eternal state. It can be convincingly argued that many people make a public commitment to Christ that in no way reflects a private, personal commitment to Christ in their hearts. When roots don't take hold... when the decision for Christ is outward and not truly inward, the 'faith' they claim soon fails them, and out of discouragement or offense they fall by the wayside. Since we won't agree, I'll simply say, from everything I've read and studied on this subject, the only conclusion I can come to on this is these "seeds"(the Word of God) never took root in the soil of these mens' hearts, and while they showed signs of Life early on, it becomes all too apparent in time that the seed died for lack of "moisture" (again, the Word of God). These souls appeared saved, but the word did not take, and no roots developed...
All this strays from the topic, however.
Apostasy, and those who are purveyors of it, according to Jude do not demonstrate any prior acceptance of Christ, through faith. They are:
"...ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." --verse 4
They are "...filthy dreamers [who] defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities." --verse 8
They "...speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts," And they "corrupt themselves" thereby. --verse 10
"...they have gone in the way of Cain", "ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward", and will "...[perish] in the gainsaying of Core" --verse 11
They "[feed] themselves without fear" from the love feasts of the brethern. They are "Clouds... without water, carried about of winds [and every wind of doctrine]" They are "trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots" --verse 12
They are "raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame" and "wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." --verse 13
They are "...murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth[s] speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage." --verse 16
They are "mockers" who "walk after their own ungodly lusts." --verse 18
They "separate themselves" [cause divisions]; and are "sensual, having not the Spirit" --verse 19
Contrast all that with the genuine Christian who, counsels Jude, are to "[build] up [them]selves on [their] most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. Keep[ing] [them]selves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of [their] Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." verse 20-21
Of the Apostate, Jude simply says they "have not the spirit" (of God).
As Christians we are to "have compassion," [on some] "making a difference". On others we are to "...save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." [a reminder of Levitical law concerning the garments of Lepers] --verse 22-23
If we fail in this they will die in their sins and will be convicted "...of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which [these] ungodly sinners have spoken against him." --verse 15
The very simple truth here, for anyone willing to look at it, is we cannot save ourselves any more than we can UNsave ourselves. The genuine believer in Christ is secure... "...sealed unto the say of redemption" (Eph 4:30) and, according to Jude, He (Christ) "...is able to keep [us] from falling, and to present [us] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..." because He is "the only wise God our Saviour" --verse 24-25. In other words, 'Christ does the saving, and Christ does the keeping.' [Now, I know Methodists in particular teach that a Christian can turn his back on God and walk away, but I reject that for a number of reasons which aren't pertinent to this discussion.]
Whatever our difference on Matthew 13:1-8, Jude very clearly defines what is, who is, and the 'present' eternal state of ALL Apostates-- They have not the spirit. "They were ordained to this condemnation" --verse 4, which suggests God knows they will never accept His Son as savior.
But that must not be our attitude. We are to [on some] have compassion; making a difference. And others, save with fear, pulling them out of the fires of hell, careful not to allow their sin-sickness to afflict us [attempt to save them from the fire, but take care not to get burnt yourself].
Again, whatever our disagreement on Apostates, Jude clearly teaches that these are not saved, have never been saved, and likely will not be saved... but to try anyway. And since all scripture must be complimentary, as opposed to contradictory, Jude is the final [as in the last mention specifically in terms of defining] word in the New Testament on who is and who is not Apostate.
I've said my peace.
Yes, I prefer the dictionary -- over the Bible or anything else -- for certainty as to the definition of words. That's what dictionaries are for; the definition of words is not what the Bible is for.
Just oike if I want a drink of water, I go to the kitchen faucet, not the Bible.
On the other hand, EL, I know you insist on wrongly using the word "murder" because of the way you interpret parts of the Bible, so I'm not surprised that you would look to the Bible, not the dictionary, for other "definitions" of words that suit you.
Dad, I always wonder how in the hell, so to speak, you ever mistook my earnestness for piety! Screw piety. That ain't me, and never has been me.
And there go Mom2's ears gettin' red again!
"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
This has nothing to do with someone who has accepted salvation...by grace...through faith.
Read it again, Dan. "Ye who are seeking to be justified by law" gives that away.
"..ye who rae seeking to be justified by law..."
Does that mean those who are placing faith in their sermon-on-the-mount good works?
Actually, ER, I was just ribbing you. I agree with your choice of books in terms of definition, but I also recognize that the dictionary doesn't always tell the whole story.
Still, I agree with that dictionaries and kitchen faucets have their proper and prescribed uses.
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