Is he, or isn't he?
"We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni said on Fox News. "Don't get me wrong here, I have the highest respect for Islam and learned a lot of very good things about it. It was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns and we didn't know what the hell was going on."
He learned a lot of very good things about Islam... at gunpoint. Furthermore-- assuming he was a Christian --he converted [translation: recanted a previously held belief] to a false religion. At gunpoint! This is a picture of what awaits everyone if the world continues to believe the lie that Islam is a religion of peace.
I can't imagine any good reason to recant ones faith in Christ for a false god, even at gunpoint. Is is okay for a Christian to convert to Islam, even on pain of death? ESPECIALLY of pain of death? No, it is not.
If Centanni and Wiig are genuine Christians, they'll have to answer mightily for what they've done. But it may very well be they are like most everyone else who calls themselves Christian... 'Christian' because their parents took them to church as children... 'Christian' because mother dressed them up each year for Easter... 'Christian' because they take their own children to church, and dress them up for Easter. In other words, because of some sense of family tradition, not because of a personal profession of faith.
Believe it or not, a time is coming when the excuse, 'but they had a gun to my head!' won't buy anyone a reprieve before God. I can't imagine a Christian denying his Savior and God, for ANY reason. Perhaps a genuine Christian can deny his Lord and still be a Christian. Peter did. Three times. But then Jesus gave him an opportunity to re-affirm his love for Him... Three times. At the end of his life, Peter died for his faith. Granted, his denials were not at the point of a knife, sword, or gun. But when death was assured, Peter went to the cross unrepentent of his faith in God, and the Gospel of Christ.
Steve Centanni and Wiig should have said no, for it's not at all certain their captors would have actually killed them had they refused. What they have done is set a dangerous precedent in the minds of Islamaniacs. But as long as Centanni and Wiig continue to draw breath there is opportunity for genuine repentance, and an oppotunity to turn, or RE-turn, to God.
Here's hoping the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and they wisely choose repentance and confession, and personal faith over family tradition.
from the mind of... Eric | 9:10 PM
35 Comments:
"This is a picture of what awaits everyone if the world continues to believe the lie that Islam is a religion of peace."
Yeah. This wasn't the act of a few wacked out people acting in the name of Allah. This is the secret plan behind a billion plus people on the earth.
We better start stockpiling them bombs. Let's see...if one bomb can kill - on average - 1000 Muslims, then we'd need a million bombs. Is that right? Math's not my strong point...
Is this your plan or do you suspect that after we kill the first half a billion muslims the rest will convert to Christianity?
And, by the way, I'm sure you're NOT advocating this sort of slaughter (I'd hope not), but what I'm doing is looking to where your thinking would lead. Seriously, how do you see it playing out, if not mass extinction?
Dan,
As much as you want the world to be an overall lovely place to live, it is not. And Islam is a dangerous religion. While you are defending it to those of us who see it as a danger, there are Muslims out there plotting and scheming to destroy America - and YOU. And they aren't all in other countries. They're right here in the US. You think much more highly of them than they do of you.
So what are you advocating? That's all I'm asking. What's your solution?
Dan, this is just an extension of your argument over at Mark's place-- It's off topic here --I answered that there [Mark still has to approve it], but I'll state it here in the simplest of terms-- I do not advocate genocide. If I weren't going into the 6 I have more to say
Okay... we're in weather...
I do, honestly, understand where you're coming from, Dan. If there were an easy, peaceful, bloodless solution, I'd jump all over it. But there isn't. It has nothing to do with the false religion of Islam. It has nothing to do with the fact that Muslims want to kill and subjugate every non-believer in the world. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fatal flaw at the heart of every human soul. And that is our inborne propensity for sin.
We can't kill them all, nor should we try, but neither can we allow them to walk over us. that won't do either. And talk is ineffective. What else would you suggest?
But back to the post. Centanni should NEVER have recanted his personal beliefs for that dog religion lovingly referred to as Islam.
Dan believes that if you feed a Tiger enough meat, it will eventually become a Vegitarian...
It could be that Dan takes Jesus at His word. "This is what I meant by 'turn the other cheek,'" He might say. Seriously. What do you think it means?
Radical, ain't it?
Or was that just sarcasm? Or sophistry? Or rhetoric?
We should all be ashamed to call ourselves Christians, or even, as I am wont to say lately, "Jesusian."
We're just playing at it, as long as we give a rat's backside over winning any war over our vaunted -- and EL, you *do* vaunt it -- "professions of faith" -- as if THAT had anything to do with any of our relationships with God! Check that, then: Over our actual relationship with God.
Reality sucks. Sure looks like we could at least avoid situations where genocide becomes a bad joke.
Here's what would scare the crap out of me: (and I'm paraphrasing)
"If you deny me before man, I will deny you before my Father."
I just couldn't take that chance. If God could send his only Son to die for us, how big of a slap in the face to not profess Him on pain of our own death?
"...how big of a slap in the face to not profess Him on pain of our own death?"
Which is the point of this post... not the row over at Mark's place.
It's hard for me to figure out what some commentors here believe, but speaking for myself, and what God's word has to say, time's running short. Muslims won't achieve the victory they seek, and I intend to stand firm; relying on God to strengthen my faith. Without that I couldn't be sure that I would have courage enough to stand firm and hold to my faith, even under threat of death.
I can do nothing without Him, and I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
"Yeah. This wasn't the act of a few wacked out people acting in the name of Allah. This is the secret plan behind a billion plus people on the earth."
See, Dan--that's your problem. It's no secret--the enemy (Not just the few you want us to believe are the only threat, but all those who are standing silently letting their "religious" brethren do the deed without nary a word against it)is HERALDING it's intent.
Wake up and smell the napalm, dude!
ER, when you speak for Jesus Christ (you know--put words in his mouth--pervert scripture--add to scripture as you been known to do, you lose any credibility you think you have left.
"It's hard for me to figure out what some commentors here believe..." ELAshley
I know it, EL---hawkish, then wimpish--every bit impish!
"And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
To use out of Love, for strictly humanitarian purposes, of course.
Dude, or Dudette... Humor is appreciated, but that's NOT funny. And I'm not even sure-- at present --if Luke 22:36 is even remotely contextual, let alone applicable.
Let's please refrain from blasphemy.
It's as contextual as the "Turn the other cheek" rhetoric and the Blasphemy that ER regularly posts here.
Just trying to get into the spirit of the discussion.
My apologies if I offended you, Elashley.
"And talk is ineffective"
Witnessing is ineffective? Praying is ineffective? Being a witness to God's love is ineffective?
I don't believe for a minute that you believe that EL.
I've dear friends who are Baptist missionaries in Muslim Morocco. They get along famously with their Muslim brothers and sisters. (And she recently said that her husband feels a much closer affiliation and Christian love with his Muslim brothers and sisters than most of the Southern Baptist speaking heads here.)
No one is pointing a gun to their heads. No one is hating them out loud. This is true for the VAST majority of the billion + Muslims in the world. There's not a single bit of evidence to the contrary.
That's all I was getting at with my original comment to your post - we can't lump "muslims" in to one group. And those who try (I'm not sure that you are, but it sounded like it) are doing God's work of reconciliation (OUR work of reconciliation) a great disservice.
Speak on, brothers and sisters! There's power in those words of love and more power still in those actions of love.
Jesus wasn't setting us up to be martyrs when he commanded us to overcome evil with good (although it may sometimes come to that) - he was telling us how it is, how human nature is. It's a damned difficult thing to continue to strike a man who won't strike you back.
God knows of what God speaks.
Okay. I'm going to be nit-picky here.
"OUR work of reconciliation"
Uh, uh... Nope. OUR work is to spread the good news. The Spirit convicts, Jesus has already done the reconciling, and God is simply waiting for those who WILL accept, TO accept, the FINISHED work of Christ.
Fine, spread the good news. But I reckon you're going to have to use some words to do it (although, as always, our actions speak louder than our words).
We'll never spread the good news with bombs, though. Only body parts. Unregenerate body parts, in many's opinion.
(It has been pointed out that those concerned about lost souls would be the LAST to advocate war against such - condemning them to an eternity in hell, by traditionalists' thinking...)
Acts 7:26 - "he (Moses) tried to reconcile them in peace"
II Cor. 5:18 - "God, who reconciled us to Himself, through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation"
Hey, d.dad, what in the world are you talking about? Never mind. There's peace between us. Don't start.
To the anon: I'm pretty sure there's a hotter place for those who would falsely accuse a brother of blasphemy than you might think, especially if one's definition of blasphemy is "a view on Scripture that is different than mine."
Blaspemy my butt. Advocating war, for any reason, is more of a perversion of Jesus's teaching than anything I've ever said here. Jesus is clear. Following Him is tough. It's only with weeping and shame that I acquiesce to the war in Afghanistan. (Not so George W. Bush's war in Iraq.)
wcyvfps
"Witnessing is ineffective? Praying is ineffective? Being a witness to God's love is ineffective?"--Dan the enlightened
This is Dan in a nutshell:
At the sound of the bugle Dan looks up to see all flanks of a cavalry force--complete with the best-conditioned war stallions, armor, bristling tools of war and determined ideological soldiers springing to the charge directly towards him. About that time he hears the resounding "thump" as thousands of arrows are released from the grips of the archers behind the cavalry columns.
Frozen in surprise for a moment, he sees his countrymen around him beginning to fall. He sees others find any weapon at hand and spring into the fight against the attackers.
In an instant--acting from pure, rehearsed instinct nurtured by his intense adherence to non-violence, Dan the enlightened one turns and kneels begins to pleads with the enemy intent on his and his world's destruction......and......................kisses his @ss goodbye!
God really DOES help them who help themselves, Dan. And those who help others as well.
You need to take a close look at the way you view the US and the way you view our enemy. The views you display in your writings are very, very distorted.
I wouldn't belong to a church that was not aggressively witnessing and having results. But witnessing and praying are only part of our responsibility to our fellow-0man.
Oh, get over yourself.
ER, that is...
Try again, Anon. That doesn't make any sense. I haven't tried to place myself above anyone else here.
“See how they love one another” are the words I noted in the third century as spoken by some of the pagans regarding Christian communities.
No more! What have you become? Shame!
Can't argue with Tertullian. He's right.
ER-- It goes without saying we disagree on a number of things but you have always been a straight shooter.
Daddio-- Great imagination. When's the novel hitting the shelves?
Dan-- I get carried away. As do we all. I do not advocate the solution I offered at Mark's place. It would work. But it's as evil-- and more --a solution as the one Hitler set in motion. Thing is, Hitler didn't stop with the Jews. He euthanized mental defectives, the chronically ill, murdered almost a million Gypsies, and roughly three million Slavs. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of ten million people-- It's pennies to dollars when you consider that the solution I offered would murder at least a billion....
Seriously. It is evil. And it is not a viable option for ANY sane man, let alone a child of God.
And the last time I checked, Morocco is not a hot bed of radical wahhabi-ists.
Thanks for the clarification, El.
So if it is evil, as we both agree it is, will you join me in denouncing those who advocate committing such evil (whether they're Muslim or Christian, Iraqi or US citizens)?
I must admit, however El, that I feel I'm getting two messages from you. You tell me that, "Morocco is not a hot bed of radical wahhabi-ists," indicating that you realize that not all Muslims are intent on killing us and eating our spleens.
But then you also say:
"It has nothing to do with the fact that Muslims want to kill and subjugate every non-believer in the world."
Not a FEW Muslims, not even SOME Muslims, but "Muslims want to kill..."
This was the original reason I responded to your original post. By repeating the lie that Muslims are out to get us, we spread fear and hatred. Instead, I'd ask you to join me in celebrating the friendships that we can have with folk of all sorts. THIS is one Christian approach to peacemaking and has more power than a nuclear bomb ever will.
I know this is probably, in your way of thinking, tangential to the purpose of this post (denying Christ). But for those of us like ER and myself, we feel there is more than one way to deny Christ...
"will you join me in denouncing those who advocate committing such evil..."
Define "Evil" in respect to specifics. If you mean the Cenurion in Acts who was saved-- and his whole house --who, since no mention of a change of profession, continued his duties as a centurion, in effect, remaining in a position where killing would likely become necessary... Sorry, I can't do that. If you mean the likes of Idi Amin, Nicolás Ceascescu, Pol Pot, Bin Laden... I will gladly join you in denouncing said evil.
"Not a FEW Muslims, not even SOME Muslims, but "Muslims want to kill... By repeating the lie that Muslims are out to get us, we spread fear and hatred."
It is not a "lie" that Muslims are out to get us. Not all, obviously, and I didn't think it was necessary to point that out; we're all fairly bright people. I should have realized some things do indeed need spelling out. [and that was typed out with a smile, a roll of the eyes, and more than a hint of 'constructive' sarcasm].
We believe"
I understand where you're coming from, here, but I must point out that you're treading dangerous water there. 'We believe' is not the same as, 'the Bible says'.
Respectfully... Idolatry lies in the direction of 'we believe'. It's akin to saying, 'As I see it' which is quite different from, 'As God sees it.'
One more thing... It's not the peaceful Muslims that worry me, it's the hundreds of thousands who aren't. They're the only ones I'm concerned about.
"Define "Evil" in respect to specifics."
We've both been to websites (Casting Pearls, Daddio's) where they are advocating the nuclear destruction of Muslim cities. Of wiping out entire cities. ("Using all the intelligence information that we have on the possible whereabouts of bin Laden, hit that particular area with a nuclear bomb. Whether we kill bin Laden or not is immaterial." - casting pearls, "a few well-placed nukes would go very far in restoring America's credibility" -daddio)
I thought we agreed that this was a bad idea and, indeed, evil.
That first man who devised in his mind the facrication of a bow-- supple length of wood and sinew --who thought a small spear tipped with flint might provide both food and protection... and then never used it.
What will you, Dan, advocate should... SHOULD... Iran develop nuclear weapons and decides to use them on innocent anybodies ?
Do we wait to be struck first? What sin of ours who could have prevented the death of millions? Will we be justified in retaliating in like manner?
How far do we take negotiations? Do we defy evil before evil puts the gun to our head? If we wait for the barrel to graze the back of our skulls how effective will our negotiations then be? At what point are we permitted to say, "This far, and no further?"
How far do we take pacifism? How far do we take peace? Do we deny the God that gave us life, simply to live in peace?
Dragging God into a discussion of how this country, or the West in general, can deal with its enemies denigrates both the discussion and God. Marching to war has nothing to do with God at all. I promise you that Jesus, who shows Christians The Way, is against. war. period.
In other words, make your case for war, but keep God out of it, out of the geopolitical details anyway, for to do otherwise is no better than the "Islamaniacs." Then, make your peace with God.
My personal approach is to use my head when looking at the world, then to repent for lack of faith and listen again to my heart -- over and over and over and over and over ...
God is on the side of humanity.
Oh, to answer the hardest question. Maybe we *do* have to be struck fist with a nuke to have any moral basis whatsoever to defend against a nuke!
Preventive war is immoral by definition.
I reluctantly agree with you, ELA. Reluctantly because I doubt I would have the moral strength to withstand a gunpoint threat.
I hope that GOD sees into their hearts and treats them accordingly.
Yes, this is Islam in action: Convert or Die.
No, no, no! This is NOT Islam in action ("convert or die")! It is the bad behavior of some 5% of folk who identify themselves as Muslims.
It doesn't start getting support of the Muslim community at large until we isolate them, placing them all in the same box, calling them all "the enemy, unreasonable and dangerous."
Do you want to be judged by a small minority of "christians" who behave badly? "Why Tim McVeigh is why we need to stop these Christians before they kill again!"
The danger is not in Islam, it is in forcing Muslims to be the "bad guy" and making the "muslims" who behave bad in to martyrs. The danger is in saying things like, "Yep. Muslim = convert or die..."
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