Pocket Full of Mumbles

What's done is done, and this puppy's done. Visit me over at Pearls & Lodestones

Thursday, March 22, 2007

Thanks, Ollie, for the heads up!


"This is the first war in history where all the images on American television are provided by the enemy."

--COL Oliver North

[This from a post at @ Large aptly titled, 'Sleeping with the Enemy']

It's common knowledge that much of the reporting being done in Iraq and Baghdad is done from the safety of 'The Green Zone', and yet it never occurred to me that the images, as well, would come from stringers. I am both surprised and nonplussed by this revelation.

19 Comments:

Blogger Dan Trabue said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 22, 2007 9:31 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Great quote. And like most great quotes, untrue -- unless you include EVRERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD as the enemy of the U.S.

Oh, wait ... Never mind.

Especially amusing since you think so lowly of U.S. media, doubly especailly amusing since you, EL, as I do, work for the U.S. media! It's a bitch, ain't it?

March 22, 2007 9:35 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

C'mon Dan, you can do better than that! Are so filled with hate for 'War Criminals' that you can't accept an honest observation from a fellow Christian!?

March 22, 2007 9:38 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

Or is this not evidence enough that you have sold your soul to liberal propagandists?

Seriously... Is that all you got?

March 22, 2007 9:42 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

It is indeed a 'bitch' ER... where do you think I learned my disdain for media?

I may work in media... albeit small market media, but at least I don't drink the Kool Aid. I have my own beliefs and opinions, and I don't mind voicing them.

Same as you. Same as Dan... to each their own, but try not to be offended if I choose to hold my nose.

March 22, 2007 9:48 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

"Are so filled with hate for 'War Criminals' that you can't accept an honest observation from a fellow Christian!?"

Ollie North may or may not be a Christian, I know nothing about the man except the facts surrounding his involvement in war crimes in Nicaragua.

Well, that and he is unrepentant for his part in selling weapons illegally to Iran so that he could take those profits and give them illegally to terrorists in Nicaragua.

I don't hate the man. I don't know him.

But anyone - claiming Christ or not - who has participated in such horrendous crimes and who is unrepentant about it - who in fact is PROUD of what he did - that man will always have my opposition as an American and a Christian.

Would you give much heed to an unrepentant rapist who was speaking on women's issue? Would you give much heed to an unrepentant pedophile speaking on children's issues?

The man has no credibility as a Christian or as an American (I'm not saying he's NOT a Christian or an American, mind you).

Seriously, what does it take for you to be appalled by the sin of someone who happens to agree with you? You question my Christianity and mock my faith ("sold your soul to liberal propagandists") regularly here because I have a different interpretation of the Bible on a few issues and yet this man supports the killing of tens of thousands of Nicaraguans and you appear to venerate him?!

What gives? Is it possible you don't know his part in infamy or do you know about his crimes and yet still consider him a brother over me, merely because he believes the "right" way on homosexuality and supporting war?

March 23, 2007 5:25 AM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

In case you're just uninformed:

The contra army attacking Nicaragua, organized, funded, and advised by the United States, specialized in attacking “soft targets,” the “selective but systematic killing of persons they perceive as representing the government,” and “indiscriminate attacks on civilians” (Human Rights Watch, 1987).

But I know: HRW is a "leftist" organization not to be trusted, right? But Ollie North is a Christian who believes the right way therefore he IS to be trusted.

Lord have mercy.

March 23, 2007 5:50 AM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

By the way, I'd honestly like to know: What has turned you so against ER and me? Why the vehemence towards us?

Is it merely because we disagree with your interpretation of the Bible on the point of homosexuality, peacemaking and to some degree, economics? Do you treat everyone who disagrees with you on these topics so harshly? Do you treat others who disagree with you on other topics as harshly as well?

I mean, if someone disagreed with your interpretation of OSAS, are they hell-bound and enemies of the church and, for that reason you must stand opposed belligerantly to them?

Or is there something deeper than mere disagreement? Do you suspect that we are lying about our faith and deliberately trying to undermine True Believers? Do you suspect that we secretly are terrorist-supporters?

There is no disdain in this query - these are just honest questions I have.

If you aren't interested in talking about it here where it's off-topic, you can always email me: paynehollow at yahoo.

March 23, 2007 7:47 AM  
Blogger Eric said...

Firstly, I am not turned against you as a person. As I stated once in the past, you keep me on my toes. I am however vehemently opposed to your and ER's often radical departure (based on my own perceptions) from biblical truth... and I do get carried away at times, for which, I humbly apologize-- "more flies with honey," and all that...

Regarding your comments on Oliver North:

"I know nothing about the man except the facts surrounding his involvement in war crimes in Nicaragua."

If this was a genuine statement of truth, how then can you say North is 'unrepentant'? What do you honestly know about him besides 'the facts surrounding his involvement in war crimes in Nicaragua'?

As for my self, I read what he writes, I've heard him speak of his faith... publically; on radio AND television. And whatever his past crimes, he is still a retired Colonel in the Marine Corp with an understanding of war-- fair AND foul --political situations, AND, since he's spent months on the ground embedded with troops, longer than any other reporter I'm aware of, his opinion carries great weight on what's going on on the ground in Iraq, and within the ranks of Media' bunkered in "The Green Zone."

Whether or not he's repentant is between God and Oliver North. Will you judge him to his and your dying breath for what he may have done wrong twenty years ago? Or will you, like God, forget his crimes... since they weren't the least bit sexual in nature... and judge the tree by the fruit it currently bears? For I tell you this: If he HAS repented, and since you don't know anything 'about the man except the facts surrounding his involvement in war crimes in Nicaragua', what will Jesus say to
when you're face to face with Him and you have to give account for every idle word you spoke against COL North, who is your fellow laborer in Christ? We can both be thankful that COL North, and everyone else we have wronged with our tongues will not hold in their hearts ANY resentment toward us, and will instead love us with an intimacy that cannot be matched here on earth.

As for the rest, we can discuss that later. I'm going to be late for work if I keep going.

March 23, 2007 8:32 AM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Again, you appear to want to try to misrepresent my position. I said I was generally unfamiliar with North except "his involvement in war crimes in Nicaragua."

As NORTH himself testified about his involvement: "I never considered myself a fall guy. I know what I did. I know why I did it. I'm not ashamed of it."

He is proud of his part in actions that led to the deaths of thousands of Nicaraguans. He thinks he was doing the right thing and therefore, all those deaths were a acceptable to him.

I take that to be unrepentant.

How do you take it?

I, too, wonder what will Jesus say when you're face to face with Him and you have to give account for every idle word you spoke against Dan Trabue and ER, who are your fellow laborers in Christ?

As to my comments about North, I think he'd say "Well done." Because I spoke the truth against evil action (and that's what I think war crimes/supporting the killing of thousands of people are - evil), even though that truth is unpopular amongst many of my fellow Christians.

March 23, 2007 9:59 AM  
Blogger Eric said...

And this, your lastest comment, speaks directly to your credibility. How can you possibly say,

"I said I was generally unfamiliar with North except 'his involvement in war crimes in Nicaragua.'"

When anyone can go up five comments and read EXACTLY what you said, and the word 'generally' appears nowhere.

What you said was "I know nothing about the man except..." And yet knowing nothing you cast doubt on his word as a Marine and a journalist? That's rich coming from a man who demands the rest of us be more 'Christian' toward people you defend.

Furthermore, you continue to castigate a man who 20 years ago saw no reason to feel guilty for what he was ordered to do, conveniently forgetting that the man today is 20 years removed from the man who testified before congress.

Jesus admonished Peter and the others to forgive 'seventy times seven', but you can't pull your head out of the eighties to see if anything might have changed.

But you, all pious and self-righteous in the very first comment you made, call the man a war criminal. What you conventiently forget-- or intentionally leave out --is that while he was found guilty on May 4, 1989 on three counts (out of 12), his convictions were vacated on July 20, 1990, after the appeals court found that witnesses in his trial might have been 'impermissibly affected' by his immunized congressional testimony.

Is he a criminal? According to the Appeals Court, no; the convictions were vacated. Ergo, he is not a war criminal.

You can cling to the label all you wish. But by doing so you demonstrate to everyone on my side of the fence that you a hypocrite, in that you'll willing call Bush a war criminal (and you have) without the benefit of a trial, but Clinton, Reid, Jefferson, Berger, et al, are afforded extenuating circumstances.

Oh, I know, you don't think much of Clinton. We've all heard that. But you defend him and the others every chance you get.

I say, pull the beam out of your own eye first, then you'll see clearly enough to help your brother pull the beam out of HIS eye.

March 23, 2007 1:43 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

Besides which this post isn't about Oliver North. It's about American media not having the stones to leave the safety of The Green Zone-- unless embedded. It's about American media carrying the water of Islamic propagandists and trying to sell it as 'incontrovertable' to the unwashed ignorant masses here in America.

March 23, 2007 1:50 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Hey, you can pick your heroes where you want. I'm just saying that he admitted that he gladly took part in war crimes (ie his actions in Nicaragua) and he has not changed his tune since.

I DO know nothing of the man beyond that. I'm relatively sure if he had made an admission of guilt and a plea for forgiveness we would have heard about it.

How is that a reflection on MY credibility?

Tell me - Suppose a Black Panther 30 years ago killed a man he believed to be racist, and the killer did so gladly. He hasn't repented of that, instead saying he was guilty and he was glad he did it.

How credible would you find that man to be today? Honestly.

March 23, 2007 2:12 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

Honestly? It would depend on the issue. I'm quite sure such a man understands some things better than I.

But tangential to your hypothetical... Stanley "Tookie" Williams went to his execution unrepentant, and his actions while in prison (aside from writing a book) showed no inward change from the man he was when he committed the murder that put him on death row.

Carla Faye Tucker, on the other hand, guilty of a brutal double homocide, genuinely changed in prison. She went to her execution in the sure knowledge that she would shortly be with the Lord. And I expect to meet her in heaven.

The change in her was so profound that had, by some miracle, she been given a full pardon I would have been quite comfortable with her as my next door neighbor.

But Stanley "Tookie" Williams? I'd buy a gun and learn to use it.

I'm not as hung up as you appear on the sins of others. Clinton committed adultery, lied under oath, lied on camera to the American people.... and then apologized. Was it sincere? Only God knows. But my objection to Clinton is not so much his seemingly complete lack of moral character, it's the way you and others hold equally fallable men on my side of the aisle to a much higher standard than those on your side.

Clinton will never hold another public office that will directly impact my life. He's free to be as incorrigible as he wishes, and Mrs. Clinton will allow. But what get's my goat up is you and every other hypocritical liberal looking down your noses at 'war criminals' while praising the great and many morally just and upright on your side of the aisle.

March 23, 2007 3:15 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

"But what get's my goat up is you and every other hypocritical liberal looking down your noses at 'war criminals' while praising the great and many morally just and upright on your side of the aisle."

Do you at least understand how amazed and dismayed I and many others are with being told that I'm hypocritical for being displeased with WAR CRIMINALS!!??

And which people on "my" side of the aisle have I praised to earn this disdain? Dennis Kucinich? Martin Luther King, Jr? Wendell Berry?

March 23, 2007 3:52 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Y'all both need to settle down.

Dan, you can be exasperating.

EL, you've stooped to plain meanness lately.

My own sins are plain, as usual, for all to see.

March 23, 2007 9:10 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

But, Ollie North, and President Bush, are, in fact, "war criminals" at least as much as abortion is "murder" or someone who disagrees with you is an "apostate."

Speaking of beams and motes, EL, don't act all offended at rhetorical excess when you are as guilty of it as the next partisan.

March 23, 2007 9:14 PM  
Blogger Eric said...

Rhetorical Excess....

That's beautiful English ER. Love it! Gonna use it myself!

March 23, 2007 10:25 PM  
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Yes, I can be exasperating when I ask not to be maligned for standing opposed to convicted felons who gladly took part in violating our nation's laws and illegally sending arms and other support to terrorists who then used that support to kill innocent people.

I can be exasperating when I ask not to be called hypocritical for taking that position and I can't figure out where the hypocrisy is. Sorry about that.

March 24, 2007 1:46 PM  

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