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from the mind of... Eric | 2:56 PM
28 Comments:
What does it mean to be a Christian:
a) As a member of the body of Christ?
b) As a member of the community?
c) As a citizen of the world?
d) In time of peace?
e) In time of war?
In all of the above, I think it means just what it sounds like it means: That we
1. agree with and
2. follow Christ's teachings
It doesn't mean that we go to church. It doesn't mean that we say we're christian. It doesn't mean that we've been baptized and it doesn't even mean that we've "accepted Jesus into our lives and hearts and asked him to forgive our sins."
Those all may be part of it, but if we reject Christ's teachings, then none of the preceding paragraph really matters much, it seems to me.
I'd think this much is self-evident but anymore, I'm not so sure...
And it is the seeming lack of 'self evidence' that has prompted me to ask. But not because I don't know the answers already.
You answered well, though incompletely.
Eric, you may remember I posted an article called Are You Really a Christian? a while back.
If we've been born again, we're not going to reject Christ's teachings - He lives within us and He can't reject Himself.
Whether in times of war, or times of peace, we should be the same.
Thou shalt not kill literally means thou shalt not murder. Governments clearly are ordained by God at times to fight wars. Individuals are not.
But would it not be a sincere question to ask "Is it murder if I kill someone who's not my war-time enemy?"
"You answered well, though incompletely."
Enlighten me.
Yes, me too.
My own theology:
1. Realize (accept, embrace, trust, rely on, pick a verb) that God did something wonderful and mysterious for us in-through-with-pick-your-preposition Jesus, his life, death and resurrection -- leaving the details to serious theologians.
2. Love God with all your heart, soul and mind.
3. Love your neighbor as yourself -- realizing the way each of us loves ourselves, hence our neighbors -- and, actually, the way we love God -- is different.
The rest is up for debate.
My own doctrine:
Jesus saves, not doctrine.
The church is community, not structure.
And, I agree that "kill" means "murder" in the Top 10.
Dan, Did you mean is it a sincere question to ask "Is it murder if I kill someone in time of War who's not my war-time enemy?"
Absolutely, it is.
If you were to kill someone out of Malice and hatred who was not your War Time Enemy, then you would be guilty of Murder, and would be guilty of breaking the sixth commandment.
God knows what is in your heart.
Collateral Damage in wartime is inevitable.
It does not necessarily make the Soldiers fighting the War, or the Leaders engaged in the strategy of the War guilty of Murder.
I think it DOES, however, make the leaders who refused to play by the rules of the World, and who threatened and Sabre rattled and oppressed their people to the point that War became necessary guilty of the Murder of those people.
(That would be Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hammas, Islamic Jihad, et al, Dan. NOT the Bush Administration.)
Dan, do you ever get tired of trying to find a way to assign blame and guilt to your own Country?
Do you ever wonder what it would be like to root for your own side once and a while?
Dan said: "Enlighten me."
In regard to your answer:
"In all of the above, I think it means just what it sounds like it means: That we
1. agree with and
2. follow Christ's teachings"
A nice response, as in "answered well," but as vague as ten pounds of inuendo... no specifics. And to answer your next question, "Is it murder if I kill someone who's not my war-time enemy?" We both know full well what the answer to THAT is. But I will say that even in time of war, men still commit murder. Again, as Tug pointed out, "God knows what is in [our] heart[s]."
To both quote and paraphrase Ecclesiastes:
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: [...] A time to kill, and a time to heal; [...] A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
...A time to extend mercy, and a time to mete out justice. Which is not contrary to the teachings of Christ.
The fewer specifics the better, EL! Specifics are man's window-dressings on the mysteries of the faith! Doctrine and disagreements over it keep more people from God's grace and salvation than sin itself.
What you seem to want is some kind of elaborate body of law, perhaps with specific interpretations that can be lorded over those who don't adhere to your own specifics -- which is astoundingly ironic considering your approach to earthly law and your general political orientation.
Sigh. So, how would you complicate the faith of our fathers and mothers, EL?
Jesus said, "Follow me." And those who did, did. Most of the crowd, however, were followers of followers, not followers of Him! And they fell away when they saw that He wasn't what they were looking for. The ones He sought out, however, as widely different as each one was, arguing over themselves and theor own "importance," but uniting when it came to Jesus, even as they disagreed over the exact meaning of Him, perservered.
"Collateral Damage in wartime is inevitable."
Indeed, it is - at least in today's wars, maybe always. Which is not the same as saying it is biblical or Christian.
Where we disagree is in accepting "collateral damage" (ie, killing innocent people) as acceptable for Christians. I say, No. But then, y'all know that.
Elashley said:
"A nice response, as in "answered well," but as vague as ten pounds of inuendo... no specifics."
Perhaps. But I'd say it's much less vague than "To be saved one must repent and accept Jesus into their hearts..." - not that I disagree with that at all. I was just trying to be MORE specific rather than less specific.
If we accept that to be saved, one must admit our need of salvation and accept Jesus' gift of salvation and Jesus' teachings, then we have some common ground. We can then look at the specifics of Jesus' teachings, right?
And as long as we're both accepting that common definition, then at least we're on the same ground - at the same starting point.
What? God's wasn't specific about salvation? About acceptance into the family of God? He was QUITE specific in the Old Testament about sacrifice and the proper attitudes toward worship and living. Was He really any less specific in the New Testament? Sure the Faith is uncomplicated-- Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But He also laid out all the signs of a genuine believer as deliniated in the Parable of the Sower; in essense: by their fruits you shall know them.
I'm not trying to add anything to being a Christian... Merely clarify what it means to be Christian in specific realms and situations.
Dan-- "one must admit our need of salvation and accept Jesus' gift of salvation "
Come on, we can be more specific than that. How about... 'one must admit he is a sinner and incapable of saving himself; asking Jesus to apply His blood to the problem of our sin; and determining within one's heart to follow Christ wherever that road leads, whatever pain, sorrow, or joy that comes.'
"one must admit he is a sinner and incapable of saving himself; asking Jesus to apply His blood to the problem of our sin; and determining within one's heart to follow Christ"
OK. So?
I say that's even that's way too complicated. It's dogma. It's the kind of thing used to make Christianity an exclusive club, when Jesus kept it simple in His mission of inclusivity.
It is NOT what I responded to when I was saved. It's what others taught me afterward -- and now I say it's debatable.
Come as little children, brethren, not as theologians.
"I'm not trying to add anything to being a Christian... Merely clarify what it means to be Christian in specific realms and situations."
So, are there specific realms and situations when you think it appropriate for Christians NOT to follow Christ's teachings?
Dan... Absolutely not! But the message DOES change depending on the circumstance, as in Matthew 7:6
ER... Christianity is certainly not a club, but it is most certainly exclusive: You either are or you are not; you're either saved or you're not-- the grace and privileges that come part and parcel with salvation are VERY exclusive. But at the same time, He is not willing that any should perish; Christianity is not so exclusive that only select persons are eligible for membership, but the rewards ARE exclusively members only.
Are the teachings of the Old Teastament Jesus' teachings?
EL, we agree on that. But you have a much longrer checklist of things you "have to believe" than I do. I don't think any awareness of Hebrew faith practice is necessary for one to accept the grace that comes, through Christ, with the acknowledgement that God loves us more than anything, more than he loves himself even.
"follow Christ's teachings"
The God who IS Jesus is the SAME God who wrote the law into stone with His mighty finger!
Do you ever do any physical labor on Saturdy, Dan?
The Commandment, "Thou Shall Not Kill", from my own understanding, actually says,"Thou Shall Not Unlawfully Kill". Which is a huge difference. If my understanding is correct that means that GOD recognized that there are times when killing is proper and desirable.
Christ himself said he was coming with a Sword.
Pacifism has nothing to do with the historical Jesus, and everything to do with personal tastes. Ms. Green has it right.
I think only the first - a) - has meaning here. The body of Christ consists of each Christian doing His will as best we can. b) is the Christian spreading the Gospel, while living the Gospel.
c) especially is sort of meaningless as it supposes a meaning to being a citizen of the world. We are called out of the world. Meanwhile we are doing the same things as in a) & b).
For d) and e) I see no difference. What matters is not the condition of the world at any particular time. Does a Christian change during those times? He shouldn't.
Re, "are the teachings of the Old Testament Jesus' teachings"?
1. Jesus sometimes said, "You have heard it said ..." but I say ..." In other words, He augmented the teachings of what is now the Old Testament to deal with the reality of His Incarnation.
2. I am not Jew. See Acts 10:44 to 11:18 for an indication of the consciousness of the Old Testament expected of Gentile believers. In two words: "not much."
3. I think that considering Jesus of Nazareth, or even Jesus the Christ, as being equal to God whose finger is said to have written His commandments in stone is to miss the point of who Jesus is by a wide mark. The nature of Jesus, the meaning of the Incarnation, etc., etc., and Jesus the Son's relationship with God the father, is an old and very complicated piece of theology. To boil it down to sheer equality one has to ignore pretty much everything Jesus said and did.
4. Don't call me "Reverend." Stand up: I am but a mortal.
"Jesus sometimes said, "You have heard it said ..." but I say ..." In other words, He augmented the teachings of what is now the Old Testament to deal with the reality of His Incarnation."
Actually, ER, when He used the phrase, "you have heard it said", He was actually referring to how the Jews had twisted the law to fit their own agenda. For instance, they had twisted the commandment "to love thy neighbor" to "love thy neighbor, hate thine enemy". THAT(their twisting of the law) is what He was addressing.
"I think that considering Jesus of Nazareth, or even Jesus the Christ, as being equal to God whose finger is said to have written His commandments in stone is to miss the point of who Jesus is by a wide mark. "
ER...you aren't refuting the deity of Christ, are you? Surely not. Jesus is God. You believe that, don't you?
"Actually, ER, when He used the phrase, "you have heard it said", He was actually referring to how the Jews had twisted the law to fit their own agenda. For instance, they had twisted the commandment "to love thy neighbor" to "love thy neighbor, hate thine enemy". THAT(their twisting of the law) is what He was addressing."--Ms. Green
The "good" Reverend Redneck is perfectly willing to pervert God's word. Ms. Green, if truth doesn't line up with his political philosophy, ER has shown he is eager to throw that truth away and add his own "truth" to scripture.
Dangerous stuff!
Isn't it funny that the Word of God specifically talks about truth being turned on its head during the end-times and that these "christians" who delight in perverting scripture are doing all they can to turn truth on its head.
Perverts!
Ms. Green, nothing in what I wreote could be construed by a reasonable person as denying the deity of Jesus.
Daddio, if I die first, I will personally welcome you into heaven -- and if you continue to be as mean and low and judgmental as you are, you will not get the irony, and it will your ruin your day, which means it may very well ruin your eternity! Jerk! Stop lying about me.
Sigh. If you think I've misinterpreted something, feel free to say it -- but to accuse me of twisting Scripture, for any reason, is a false and sinister accusation -- one that I've never made of you, and would not.
ER, I'm glad to know I was mistaken. I took these words:
I think that considering Jesus of Nazareth, or even Jesus the Christ, as being equal to God whose finger is said to have written His commandments in stone is to miss the point of who Jesus is by a wide mark. to imply that Jesus was not equal to God.
My apologies for misinterpreting your meaning.
Equal in ... stature, for lack of a better word. But not identical. Maybe I didn't choose my words well.
Jesus shows us another, much more intimate (and therefore able for humans to embrace) side of God's personality.
And, it's HIS personality, or revleation, that, I believe, we are meant to follow -- not the angry, jealous and at times apparently capricious God of the O.T. It is impossible, in my view, to follow both, for they do, actually, contradict.
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